Rediscover Your Joy: Art Journaling for Life Transitions Interview Susan Hensley

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreignormalized, the podcast where we explore extraordinary journeys through life's complex transitions. Today, we have a guest whose inspiring story will resonate deeply. If you ever felt stuck or overwhelmed by change in routine, Susan Hensley pivoted from decades of a corporate executive and journalist life to becoming a transformational coach and author who uses creativity, not just strategy, to guide people back to their authentic selves during times of uncertainty. From discovering art journaling amid pandemic stress to creating her acclaimed book, Art for your sanity, Susan shows us how to reconnect with playfulness and unlock resilience, emotional clarity, and joyful problem solving at any stage in life. In this episode, we'll dive into Susan's unique blend of leadership insight or global perspective and creative healing techniques that help individuals facing transitions from career shifts to retirement to find meaning with color and curiosity. Tune in all the way to the end. You'll discover ways to find your way back to your true self. So simply through a moment of time that may be only three minutes, a secret little technique that she shares. So watch all the way to the end and find a way to silence that inner critic in a real good way that reignites your joy and happiness. So in this episode, you'll get actionable wisdom that transforms how you navigate uncertainty. Because growth often starts when we reclaim our joy in being one with the show. Subscribe. [00:02:00] Speaker B: Great. Thank you. How are you? [00:02:02] Speaker A: Yeah, really good. Really good. I'm very interested in talking to you today because you talk about art as therapy. Now, that is something I've believed myself for a very long time. You can see one of my artworks right there. [00:02:13] Speaker B: I see it. I see it. [00:02:15] Speaker A: Yeah. So I've been an artist for. For probably since I was four or five years old. Really. And embraced that as a tool for myself for just releasing all sorts of tension. So totally get that perspective. [00:02:33] Speaker B: Yeah. And I know we'll jump in. What's so interesting is you say four or five, and in so many of my workshops. Cause I work with people and I was one of them who really had walked away from art. But that's the age I ask people to go back to when they were creating for just the sheer, sheer joy of it. Right. Had no inner critic. We're just part of the creation process, so. [00:02:57] Speaker A: Exactly. Exactly. Now, one of the things that I noted with that was that you. You have to release all of the conscious mind to be able to really get into that creative mode. Yeah. And as a part of that, when I do my art, I actually go and wear trance and I Just paint. And I had a friend ask me, she said, how do you do that? Like that. And I said, okay, you do it this way. And I talked her through the process of letting go of her mind so she could do it. And now she does sort of abstract, expressive works as well. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Lovely. No, that is. I mean, that is the way to go, right? You are very easily moving into, whether, you know, it's traditional brain science, that. Right. Brain, that holistic creative space, or, you know, channeling, whatever you want to call it, letting go of the thinking mind and going with the creative impulse. In current society that is so hard for people. I work with so many people of such a strong achiever, perfectionist voice that anything that's play, anything that you don't know where it will end up, if it even ends up right. Just the creative impulse versus an end result is such a deep, deep challenge for people to go into. When you go into it, it feels fantastic, right? Like being liberated because the other really can feel like shackles and keep. Keeps us so constricted. [00:04:40] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I should introduce you to the show. So welcome to Super Normalized Susan Hensley. Susan, we're talking about art as therapy because we've both experienced the genuine magic that comes from letting go into creativity. What drew you to this role and path in life? [00:05:05] Speaker B: You know, desperation. I'll be really clear about that. I discovered it about eight years ago and followed it because it sparked such joy and I knew it was needed. Right. So when I say desperation, I always had a strong meditation practice, a strong morning page journaling practice. I would say a strong sense of spirit. And I was at a life stage for many years with being the main breadwinner, raising a family, all the things that sort of come with just living where although I had those tools, I really wasn't making room for pure play for the creative impulse. The meditation was as much a form of stress relief and just some presence, but it wasn't taking me to that joyous state or a deeper processing. And I found my morning pages, that freeform journaling exercise, if you will, or looking at dreams, I was very quickly analyzing. And I went to an art class given by a friend on a weekend. And it was really given for people who didn't think they had any creative ability. And I sat in the corner just playing with paint. She was actually explaining the color wheel. And I'm over there with some paints and sort of impatiently just plain. But I created this brown mess, right? I had some purple and blue. Anyways, I got brown, right? And it was fantastic. I felt like that four or five year old artist that just sings when they admire their own creation, right. Which has no real subjective value. It was a brown mess, but it was so joyful. And at that time I was spending, I was an HR executive and I did a lot of coaching and always talk about following glimmers, following, following those moments of joy. And it was like that, that magic moment of play, of creating, of giving over to that creative impulse with not a care in the world for the output, the outcome, just the act of creating and the fact I found such joy and still do all these years later in making a mess, if you will, and seeing how the mess feels and what it says to me. I did write when I wrote the book and in the workshops I do, I talk about making it into a journal, not something to share. Like you have these beautiful paintings around you and your creations are up on a wall. The way I have practiced to really counter the that perfectionist that still exists and me is to keep it in a private journal. Just like I'm very comfortable with my writing, I keep it there because it's such a safe space and I want it to primarily be a place to process and to express without starting to go into the what if? What does someone else think or feel when they see it. So I love that, the journal component. [00:08:41] Speaker A: So you keep it sort of personal and private in that case, so then your thinking mind doesn't get caught up in worrying about judgment. [00:08:50] Speaker B: That's exactly it. As I after the book and I did some online training and give live workshops. The biggest challenge that clients I work with have is that inner critic. And a lot of the, the research done on what our brains do on art and how good art is for us shows that by around age 8 or 9, if we don't keep following that creative impulse and it sounds like you always did, most of us receive a message that we're not good. Now whether we've made up that message or rather someone sort of explicitly made a comment and you've got to get back to that four and five year old period. What gave you joy? And I have people in the workshops in the book, I recommend this. Use crayons, glue, sticks, the things as a 4 and 5 year old that you loved to create art with. It could be play doh. It could be clay, because you didn't have that loud inner critic then. And it can be hard to say to your adult mind, no, I'm not going to be critical, right? And almost the minute you say that like, no, I'm not going to be critical. It's like, no, I'm not going to eat that or have that drink. You want it all the more. Right. It's the fun of being human. But to actually go into the. I'm going to play the way I did at 4 or 5. I'm going to create just because it's fun. I'm then going to be my own proud parent and admire, you know, what I've done. It's like magic for people. I really will say it is a joyful experience to see people after even just like a three minute creative exercise like that. What they look like, how they've lit up, the light behind their eyes. It's really, really fun. [00:10:47] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very rewarding to actually just make art for the fun of it, just doing it, you know, And I have that drive in myself. Sometimes I have more bursts of it where it's prolific and other times where I just don't do it at all. And then I go, oh, what am I missing? Or that, And I go back to it again. So, yeah, I completely understand. [00:11:08] Speaker B: Isn't that interesting that the bursts that seems to be so common. I experienced that. I know other people and I don't know if it comes to us when we need it the most or we just get busy. I'm not sure if it's us going unconscious or it's more when we need it. What I'm curious, do you have a thought on you? [00:11:29] Speaker A: I think it's probably when there's a point in life when you're going through a bit more tension and you want to recover that joy. So I think that's the reason why it comes in bits and bursts like that. And that's one of the paths that, for want of another word, spirit draws us back to that connection, to the creative impulse. Yeah, I think that's important for all of us. [00:11:53] Speaker B: Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that because I realize I have a strong point of view and it's the same as I've published the book and done publicity for it. People will say like, who do you find? Like, is it a gender? Is it an age? And I've said no, it's people in a transition. It's people in a period that's liminal, where that path isn't as obvious and you're having to sort of break open, you know, to use the caterpillar to butterfly the chrysalis. You're needing to dissolve and see what comes out. And yeah, I do. In My own practice and how I use it and in working with others. I agree it is moments of transitions are where it has its most power. [00:12:39] Speaker A: You come from a diverse background, from broadcast journalism to executive HR roles across several continents. How did these experiences shape your approach to transformational coaching? [00:12:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Having been through some really significant transitions, rather geographical, our career wise, it has given me huge empathy and understanding for the stages. Even the changes we may most desire in life with our sort of grasping or attached minds don't come nice and straight. It's not all perfect. Right. There's a whole process to transition that's about an ending that needs some grieving, if you will, and some honoring or some ritual even if it's a good thing. And I think many times we give that short shift, we don't want to look back or recognize that, particularly if it was painful, then we want that messy middle, that famous messy middle or chrysalis where you're needing to really tap into spirit, to tap into your inner wisdom and the messages you get to guide you. We want that to be straight. And it's also not right. It may be you need a little of this. It can be sideways, it can feel sort of backwards. And then even when we sort of come out the end and we think, okay, this is the new new, rather it's you're settled from a move or settled from a job change, a relationship change, whatever it may be a health change that also comes with its own set of anxieties, of concerns of disappointment. Sometimes it's not quite what we thought it would be. And what does that mean? I took a great coaching certification when there's really been a lot of research around these stages of transition that we all go through. We go through them at different times and different paces. Very similar to the famous stages of grief, if you will. Transition does have its stages and I think that the better we can understand those as part of the human experience and the more we can support each other and connect during really helps people feel less alone and sort of lean into the uncertainty and messiness of it. [00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a good release valve for the tension that comes along with life changes, for sure. So what drew you to art journaling and how did it become a pivotal tool during your own pandemic experience and retirement? Transition. [00:15:36] Speaker B: Yeah. So really it was just that fun day and gosh, I say eight years. It's probably now more like 10 years. You can tell I've been talking about this for a while and it was just something I started to do. And it was fun and it was relaxing. I'd sometimes go out in nature and come back and be inspired to, you know, draw or mess with some of the colors and images I saw. And then the pandemic came and my job, which was already large with a lot of complexity, got that much harder. And we were a global company and had people all over and many people had to come to work, whereas half didn't. And managing through all the different emotions and thoughts people had. Cause I was working HR and how do you keep people safe? And how do you. What is going on? And my own fears, my own anxiety, my own older people that I was very, very worried about. My own people with health issues and you know, wanting them to be safe. I really used the art journaling to just process. There were days and days that I would be shocked that would feel like just rage. And I'm talking crayons, right? I'm draw little screaming faces in red lightning bolts in dark purple hell flames, you know, all the imagery, raining clouds. Those were the simple images with my crayons that really spoke to me. I remember at one point thinking I had never viewed myself as such an angry person. Where's all this come from? And I just realized there were layers and layers and you get to the fear. And I'm sure many of your listeners are familiar with course in miracles or this thinking that you're always choosing their love or fear, right? And at that moment I was so embroiled in fear, it was hard to find like love or spirit or peace and tranquility. And a few minutes of that kind of release in the art journaling very quickly took me from what felt like rage and frustration to fear, to compassion for myself, to love for what we were all going through. In that sense that I wasn't alone. It was fascinating because that wasn't how I intended when I would come to the page. I was fully engulfed in that first feeling. And a lot of times it was rage or frustration. And then it was fascinating how quickly with color and image, all of that murky stuff settled and sort of got me back to spirit. And the more I found that and the more I realized how powerful, how relatively short order. Cause I was also doubling down on my meditation practices. I was doing a lot of which is the loving kindness practice and hugely important where you're just praying for all sentient beings to be free of suffering, right? That I went to that over and over again. I would start meetings with it in a very for profit company. And the most appropriate because people needed to just have someone say, may we just all be free of suffering and everyone we know? And it was interesting how well people responded to that. So although I had all those other practices, for me, the art journaling was what settled it faster and took me back into spirit. So it did eventually. Cause it's interesting to reflect on the journals. I did see that once the pandemic sort of settled, I needed a change. I was burned out. I wanted something with more freedom, that felt more of service to, say, a whole person. I loved my company. I'd been there a number of years, more than two decades. I wanted to stay longer. And I just realized I had changed during that period. And I wanted to spend more time, in essence, talking about these things, which is, how do you come into spirit? How do you live a life that is beyond our terrifying headlines and divisiveness? And, you know, you don't know some days if you just read news, which way's up? [00:20:08] Speaker A: It sounds a lot like a. Almost like a personal shamanic practice where you're recovering lost parts of your soul through art. And in the alchemical process of recovering those parts, you recover your joy. [00:20:25] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. That's beautifully. Beautifully said. You know, I talk in the book and in my workshops and people in the space that, yes, that was that rediscovery of the self. There's a journal entry that I actually ended up publishing. So I wanted to show people in the book I wrote that this isn't about your end product. It's about you processing your own journal. So it's the only reason I ever publish them. There's one where I feel like I'd come back into myself. I was whole again, where I'd found an image. And so I think you're exactly right. Both the. The ritual and the practice did put me back in touch with my joy and my, you know, my wisdom. [00:21:17] Speaker A: I found for myself a little while back there in around about 2016. I'd also gotten a little bit stuck in some ways in my life, but I had taken up a magical practice of writing signals for, you know, enhancing manifestation. And when I first did that, I was doing it so ridiculously controlled. [00:21:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:21:39] Speaker A: And. And it was. It took me a little while to figure out that, you don't have to do it perfect. Just do it. [00:21:48] Speaker B: But. But it is funny because when. When we start exploring, there is that design. Right. I mean, I think it's an evolutionary impulse, right, to improve, to get better. So I appreciate where it comes from. It just feels like it holds us back sometimes more than sets us free currently. [00:22:04] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, it is a bit of a personal, like security guard trying to make sure things are all just right so things don't go wrong. But sometimes that security guard gets out of control and then nothing can happen. [00:22:19] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. And exercise when, when I'm working with clients and they say, I just, you know, I keep hearing the voice of him. It's like, thank it. Because a lot of the time it's keeping you safe and it's helpful. But this is not playing with crayons, playing with the glue stick, collaging, playing with finger paints. You do not need to be safe right now. You are safe. Right. But I mean, it's interesting how overactive that part because, yes, all the parts, if you will, serve a purpose, but it's at the right time. And certainly playing with art is not a time that you need to be protected from whatever comes out your inner. Inner wisdom. [00:23:01] Speaker A: Yeah, true, true. Some listeners might feel stuck or overwhelmed by their own life transitions themselves. What are some first steps or simple exercises you might recommend to someone just starting out on their creative healing journey? [00:23:15] Speaker B: Okay, so I love this one because your listeners can probably do it as soon as they're done with the podcast if they want. It's an opening exercise I have people doing in workshops. If you should have it at home or wherever you are, you can do it even with two pens. You can find maybe a blue and a black one, a pencil and not if you have anything colored, any sort of color pen. That's great. If you have kids anywhere around, steal two crayons. I'm just looking for you to have two different contrasting mediums. Take a piece of paper five by seven. You can do it on envelope, back of junk mail. If you, you know, if you're still getting. That doesn't matter. Set your phone timer or a timer for three minutes. Put on your favorite song. We all sort of have a song we like, but you're only gonna listen to it for three minutes and just fill that piece of paper. So you're just looking for two colors, maybe a pencil and a black pen. If you're lucky enough to have crayons or colored pens, just choose two. But spend three minutes, no more, with no other structure other than filling the piece of paper. And once again, you can choose a envelope out of your. Your junk mail. I does size here does not matter. Just make sure you can fill it in three minutes. Listening to music and then after, just see how you feel. I have yet to meet Someone in that exercise that doesn't feel just a little bit more relaxed, some have had a blast. Some have remembered what they love to draw or that they loved to doodle in school and they just immediately reverted to what they doodle. Right. I've seen everything. And then you're going to throw it away. By the way, you're not keeping this. You know, when I lead workshops, I'm never going to look at it. No one near you is ever going to look at it. But what that exercise does if someone is feeling stuck is it has such a low barrier to entry. You probably have three minutes, you probably have a piece of scrap paper somewhere. Once again, you probably have two colors of some. Like I said, most people have a black and blue pen even. And just that act of having to fill a piece of paper while listening to music, you know, because scribbling, drying hearts, drying trees, drying house, people dry everything. Rabbits, shapes, circles. Right. It's what it takes to fill it in three minutes is a completely freeing experience. And so what they find is the constraint eliminates any need to feel perfect. Right. Very few people have any sense that they're going to create a masterpiece in three minutes or be judged for their output of this exercise. Right. And I've said you're going to throw it away. But what it tends to open up for people is that it felt good. They weren't in a doom loop in those three minutes. They weren't. Even if you don't have doom loops, we all get stuck in other thinking loops. What's next? What's next with a three minute timer going in music that really moves you very quickly into presence. And we have, our attention is so fractured anymore and so broken up that just a three minute period where you're hearing, you're feeling your hand is moving and you're seeing your output can bring such relaxation because that somatic integration feels so good in our very attention fragmented world. So that is the easy exercise for someone who's feeling stuck. It doesn't mean you're gonna go and create something, but it's just, it's what I call a little jumpstart. To just pay attention to how it feels. And then if you really do need to do some creative work, recognize that a timer and a bar that's very low of doing it badly, if you will, with some constraints really brings creativity. A wide open world can very frighten us. Constraints actually can help us be really creative. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Interesting. Yeah, I like that. I can see the way that would work because basically in that Short amount of time. It's like you sort of like you're forced to give up the conscious mind because it's so short. And if you've got your favorite musical track on, it's like expressing that as images or whatever comes through. And in that moment. Yeah, you hit that, that, that point of freedom. I can see how that would change people. [00:28:03] Speaker B: It does. And it's short. I feel like anytime I do longer exercises in workshops, but there's something about three minutes with music that really shows people how very quickly they can turn off the thinking mind. [00:28:19] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. Your book Art for Sanity, for your Sanity sounds like a roadmap for rediscovering resilience and joy. Can you share one or insights from the book that you have that you found has resonated most with your readers? [00:28:36] Speaker B: Sure. You know the sub. So thank you for sharing the title. So it is art for your sanity. And then the subtitle, which was too long for the title, but it's what I love is how art journaling can help you manage chaos and unleash joy. And the thing I love for people to take away is, is that when we tap into play, and it really is play, we open up our curiosity, which then leads us to creativity, which then leads us to joy. Right. But it really starts very simply with allowing yourself to play and be curious. There's been a lot of recent research that one of the, the best, if you will, antidotes for an anxious mind is to do something creative. Because the minute you move into something that's creative and you're asking why? What if, what would this look like? What would this feel like? It's very hard for that anxious mind that can get stuck in loops or ruts to keep going. So in the, the book, I really try and work with people to take whatever they're feeling and just practice playing. As adults, we move away from that. Almost everything we do, even things we consider social and fun, many times have a little more of a goal associated with it or an outcome. I always joke with people about watching young children, you know, four and five year olds on a playground or at recess. They aren't necessarily going out at recess or the playground saying, I'm going to do it better today, I'm going to win recess. Right. I mean, maybe they'll have a race or play tag, but it is not a goal oriented thing. It's like freedom. It's getting out in the air and play. And as adults, so many of us have just walked away from that, you know, Some people find it again with dancing if they're unselfconscious. Singing music. Right. There's a lot of, if you will, ways to tap into that. But ideally it's something without a lot of your own ego or thought that you should be good at. Like, I'd like people to find play. I mean, it can be going out in rain. It could be, you know, depending on the season. You're watching this something in nature with leaves or sticks or whatever. It can be a lot of things. But to allow yourself to reconnect with play, I think sets you on that path. And where that eventually goes to resilience is it helps you. It's not right away, but helps you remember all that you can do. When we are feeling beaten down and trapped in those doom loops, we see all the problems. Whereas when we play and move into creativity, you see all the possibility. And it helps you remember all the other times in your life you have come through hard things because those are very easy to forget about. It's interesting how quickly we forget a challenge we have gone through, because once we're through, it's like, well, of course I could do that, but now I can't do this challenge play. It reminds us of all we are capable of. [00:32:02] Speaker A: That's very important because really, when you are in a stuck place, it's like the mind only has a limited amount of processing and it's all obsessed and possessed by those loops. The only way to get out of it is, you know, for want of another word. I just thought of it while you were talking then, is to embrace silly time. Just be silly. [00:32:26] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:32:27] Speaker A: You know, and by doing that, you're being almost the opposite of what you are stuck in. [00:32:36] Speaker B: And that's what breaks you out of it, but so hard to do when you are in it. I mean, I want to be really clear. I, as much as I know this and I've written about it, and I'm at an age where I've had lots of life practice at it. You still get whatever churn, a medical test, a test, whatever it is, and you get that doom loop. And to just to jump onto a whole different track really does take some, if I will say it, intestinal fortitude or good practices. That's one of the things I do like about having some good practices all along, that when you really need them, they're there for you because they are more solid. Whether it's playing with art, prayer, meditation, any kind of ritual, whatever a person has. It's much more effective at times. That bring you sort of to your knees or that you have a lot of attachment because it will be there for you. You have a stronger foundation. [00:33:37] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a tool for enhancing your life. And I actually do find though sometimes when you're in the doom loops, you don't even think of these things. [00:33:46] Speaker B: So you know them. [00:33:48] Speaker A: It's like you need a reminder somehow. [00:33:52] Speaker B: It's what's so funny about humans. Quite honestly. I have huge love and empathy for all of us here and what we remember and what we forget in a day. It's that constant process of awakening. I go to a Buddhist meditation center for my current meditation practice and it's online. And today's teacher was joking that we would leave the meditation and walk out and immediately someone would be going through fast food and they couldn't believe how slow the people serving them at the fast food place was. And we all laughed because you recognize you resembled that. Right. We had just done this hour and a half beautiful meditation about awakening and he said it and everyone just recognized it. It most likely resembled us. [00:34:47] Speaker A: How do you blend your leadership experience with your coaching practice to support clients at different stages of their career and personal life? [00:34:54] Speaker B: So you know what's interesting? The more I've reflected on leadership and some of my earliest leadership lessons from just when I started in TV until the end when I was leading teams of 100 plus people was leadership really starts with you leading you and your own self management. And it's. I don't think anyone. We all have images of what it looks like to be a good leader and those are actions and words. But I think the best leaders are those who are deeply and authentically aligned and have a high level of understanding of themselves and their emotions and why I like some of these practices, the art journaling that we've been talking mainly about, but some of the others journaling meditation, the various tools is they create enough separation between getting caught in just the overactive thinking mind and that observer role so that you can have real empathy and compassion for the range of feelings and emotions that are coming on and really call on the who you want to be your higher self, if you will, to lead through. And so I find this works and some of these discussions work no matter where a person is in, in their, their leadership journey. Because I, I feel like most true leadership starts with self, self awareness and then self management. Easy to say. Both hard to do and then really creating in the managing yourself the empathy and understanding and clarity to help others follow a certain path. [00:36:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's just running around in my head simply because recently, only as of two days ago, we were thinking about migrating to another country. And as a part of that, just getting information about what's happening in our own country. And it's a bit off and stressful and it put me into some doom loops myself. And I was like, oh, wow. And I actually forgot what it was like because I hadn't been in one for such a long time. So it was very surprising to be going over and over things in a state of almost constant anxiety. And I mean, you did talk about the three minute process before, but what is something that you can actually, that's, it's, that's easy to remember that it can actually help keep people out of something of a doom loop. [00:37:42] Speaker B: So this is very funny to keep out of the doom loop. I think if you're aware of what the doom loop feels like when it starts, this takes some awareness. Is it a trigger and a repeating thought? Is it a tightness in your chest? Because as people experience differently, if you know what it starts to feel like, right, Whether it's in your body or a way, a pattern of thinking, if at the beginning you can do something, it can be as simple. This is as simple as standing up. Depending on where you are and if you're with others, this doesn't look that weird. Stand up when you find yourself getting into it and just take one step to the side. [00:38:29] Speaker A: Oh yeah, I like that. [00:38:32] Speaker B: Yeah, you get it. That somatically what that shows is I'm aware that I am feeling whatever, anxious, frustrated, scared. I'm over functioning on this point and I am going to choose to just take one step to the side and just look at it differently or give myself a little break or an Akron. This is not at all original, but to me, someone said, do I need to worry now or can I wait to worry? I also like that. And I thought that was so, so clever. I heard on a, a music podcast I listened to ironically and I thought, isn't that a choice? Like is this the right time or can I wait to worry? I'm not going to ignore it because maybe I do need to take some action and who knows if it ever needs to be worry. But I've also found that helpful. So really two tips to your question if a person is feeling themselves start to spiral. One is the physical somatic action just the act of, of one step to the side or a change of position. And with that you're in essence saying to yourself a different perspective, a Different moment. I'm aware of this. I can have compassion, but I don't have to be caught in it. That's what the movement does. The little phrase or wtw, Right. Wait. To worry is just that sort of catchy acronym that gives you that choice. Because when we can make choice, like I would argue, you probably never actually need to worry. You need to take action or change a behavior. But worry in and of itself is never productive. But many times we worry so far in advance. Right? Yes. You get that. I get that I do it all the time. That it's like, well, no, I can really wait. I don't need to spend my lovely afternoon doing this. Because really, that's not till Wednesday. And this is whatever Saturday. I have four days before I actually have to deal with this whatever thing I'm concerned about. [00:40:41] Speaker A: That sounds a lot like a. Like a reframe process you'd see in nlp. Just the stepping out of the moment and that. What would you call it? Like a little mind trick for yourself. It reminds me of this thing one of my friends said to me once that he said that he does whenever he gets really stressed out. And he called the doom loops like a form of neurosis. And I was like, okay, that's. That's pretty. Pretty intense to call it neurosis. He goes, yeah, but I use that as like a. A word meme to carry me through. And I said, how do you do that? And he said, well, I think neurosis. Neurosis. New roses. New roses. And I think of the color of roses and how beautiful they are, and it helps me to step out. I'm like, wow, that's cool. That's so simple and ridiculous, but also awesome. [00:41:31] Speaker B: You know, when we find those. That is a great one. [00:41:35] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:41:36] Speaker B: When you find those mind games. Because all that's happened is your mind just gotten stuck, right? And you just need to. Whatever. Move the needle, jump the track. You just need something to unstick it and not let that groove get deeper. Yeah, I love that. I mean, every once in a while, it's actually. It was a sleep exercise. I read. I haven't used it as sleep, but I've used it as a great distracting method where think of a word. It could be simple word, like the T H, E. And you come up in your mind just with how many words can I get out of a T? Right? Your mind starts going, right, you know, time, tether, theater, I mean, whatever. Those are the first three. And very quickly you're just chasing words that you know, start with a T and you're having a thought like I must know more words that start with a T. So maybe you're even giving yourself a hard time or you're thinking th versus a hard T. But you are not in that other groove and you become so strangely fascinated with brainstorming words. And I think there's always a few of those and we should sort of gather them if you will because different ones work differently to use with ourselves to play a game. I think it's why a lot of people will reach for their phone for the numbing effect and the distraction. I prefer because to me that sort of takes us can subconscious or create a whole different set of anxieties depending on what you look at or feelings. But I do think that wait to worry the near roses and what I love about roses, any of these things are really very healthy to just move us out of that moment and to reframe, get us to like look up and look around. [00:43:18] Speaker A: Yeah. Well that moment does come from a point of view. Personal security and self protection. It's actually normally that sort of mindset is to get you to run as fast as possible away from a lion. Right. But it's, it's ineffective in our modern society because we don't have the lion. The lion is our own imagination coming at us. So to be able to short circuit that by stepping out of it or using a mind trick of some sorts is excellent and very creative. So you know, so for listeners who want to integrate more playfulness into their daily routines but feel that they're too busy or too old, do you have any other mindset shifts that you'd like to share that you could encourage? [00:44:02] Speaker B: You know, the, the too old is tricky because we're never too old for play or joy. Sometimes too old is a. Well, it's a limiting set of beliefs. So I won't say sometimes it is. I would say if you can do any movement, something fun to do. And obviously I'm a huge believer in sort of integrating our body, you know, somatically with what we're feeling. A few minutes of dancing alone, privately. Right. It can be in a closet with the door shut. And once again, if you that favorite song or that movement. So it doesn't feel like exercise, it feels like play and joy. Everyone has similar to we all talked about like that four or five year old artist. We all sort of have something we used to love to doodle or draw. Small children always have favorite colors. I don't know why everyone asks young Kids what their favorite colors, but at that age, you're very good at, like, rattling off favorite colors. Right. So it's finding something fun. Small children move the minute they hear music. You put on music and they just start to move their bodies from the moment they actually can maintain their bodies. So, you know, like, 1, 2, 3. They just move. When you see that. I would do that for you. Not you personally, but a person who's having a. I don't have time. I have this. When you're getting dressed in the. The morning. Right. What are the things you can do as part of that routine to just make it a little fun? Like something that you're going to do anyways? Is it a song with a few moves? Is it. And this is silly. They're. I know some people who've gotten a hula hoop and put a hula hoop and will say, I'm gonna do five things, you know, with this hula hoop. And it feels sort of funny, but it reminds you of being a kid. Those are my recommendations. But you do them privately. You do them without telling anyone, because the person with the mindset of too old wants to have joy again and feels that it's past them. And so it's really finding whatever that is. Like if they've heard us talking, Is it a dance? Is it just singing for a few minutes at the top of your lungs, knowing no one can hear you? I think privacy is really important when we have the mindset that something has passed us by. I think some amount of privacy gives us freedom to experiment. [00:46:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I totally agree with that. And interesting. You talked about dance. I listened to a podcast a little while back there that was talking about tools that actually relieved depression and anxiety for people. And the. The number one tool they found was ecstatic dance. [00:46:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:46:54] Speaker A: And it was so simple. And they. They found that people, once they got let go of the idea of being worried about movement, they just went back into their play and it brought forth all of the rediscovery of self in so many different ways. [00:47:11] Speaker B: Yeah. I have used dance a few times. I was giving a TEDx talk and where I went on the lineup with variants. I had a very, very long wait, and I got more and more nervous. And so I'm using all the meditation. I'm trying to calm myself. I found a private dressroom. And was it working? Not enough. And I realized it dawned on me. [00:47:39] Speaker A: Oh, no, come back. That was really good. Okay, so we've had some difficulties today, and Susan's just dropped out right in the Middle of some real gold, but she'll be back in a second. So Susan, looking ahead, what new projects or directions are you excited about that you'd like to share with the listeners today? [00:48:04] Speaker B: Sure. So as I look ahead, I've been doing more work recently on self leadership and self talk. I had the honor of giving a TEDx talk about a month or so ago and then right after that gave it another talk at a university here in the States. And I realized there was a certain theme to both that really got into, and we talked about a little earlier, the mindset and awareness that helps us lead ourselves. I think so much of the time we're trying to figure out how to get other people to do like what we want, whether it's in a work or a relationship. And I think so much comes from instead staying much more, you know, in our circle of influence and if you will, as peaceful and centered as we can be. That's what really impacts everyone else. So I'm, I'm playing with that. I've got some other speaking coming up and in clients and quite honestly, it's summer here. I'm recording this in the States. I'm also just taking some time to rest. I recognize when I have some open time, that's when I get some of my best ideas. [00:49:23] Speaker A: Yeah, inspiration comes from space. [00:49:25] Speaker B: Yes, it for sure does. For years. I'll tell you just a very short funny story. I had not planned on retiring when I did, but I knew it was a few years out and everyone I knew, it's all well meaning, I want to be clear, all very well meaning people who are, who would say to me, you need to know exactly what you're gonna do on the first date of retirement. Cause you'll go crazy. You're such a high energy person, you'll go crazy and you start to believe that gets very scary. And I couldn't come up with a plan of what I was going to do. So I first decided I'm gonna walk the Camino de Santiago, you know, the Northern Spain pilgrimage, 500 miles. I'm gonna find my next career and I'm gonna do all these things. And I remember it was actually something my father said to me I was sort of gnashing about particularly because I decided I needed to leave that job before I really had thought I would. I just needed the change. I was burned out. I said, but I don't know I'm going to do it. And he said, how can you, how can you possibly know what the next act is when you are consumed by your current act. Right. And ever since, and this was only something I learned a few years ago, that space and then the not putting a time constraint because I did walk the Camino Santiago and this terrific pilgrimage walk and all the fears about, you know, knees and ankles and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, don't come true. But I also was so sure I would find the next thing I wanted to do out of it, and I didn't. I just needed more space. Right. And it was a good and humbling lesson because I really made it a little bit about this check off. And if I do this thing, if I take this pilgrimage and everyone walks about all these insights and talks about these insights, it wasn't. I didn't have insights. It was more just you need time and space being the insight, which was wholly unsatisfying and yet so true. [00:51:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, Susan, we've come towards the end of the podcast and I wanted to know how can people find you and your book? [00:51:38] Speaker B: Sure. Book is really available anywhere you buy books. You know, you just put in the title art for your sanity and you can find it that way. So that's easy. And then my website's just susan-hensley.com and there's a contact me button and I answer emails and there's a free starter guide. You just download it on how to get started Art journaling talks about some of the supplies. You know, earlier in our conversation, I talked about that little three minute exercise, but if you want a few more tips, you can just download that for free. [00:52:11] Speaker A: Yeah, excellent. Thank you so much for your time, Susan, and all that you've shared around art as therapy and yeah, I'm sure there's a lot of people out there that'll find benefit in this conversation, so I appreciate all that you've shared. [00:52:24] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. It's great. [00:52:26] Speaker A: Okay. All right, I'll just say goodbye to the listeners. [00:52:29] Speaker B: If you enjoyed today's show, I want you to like and subscribe right down below. That'd be our awesome. Thank you. [00:52:41] Speaker A: I really enjoyed talking with Susan about her process of recovering joy through her creativity. This is something that I forget often. Sorry, irregularly. I should say not so often. I mean, I try to create joy as much as possible by being a little silly and not taking things as seriously. And a part of that resilience for myself comes from meditation. But she actually really does expound and go deep into the understanding of creativity and how that that can actually help us release that personal freedom that comes from just being now if you've enjoyed today's show, please like and subscribe. And maybe go and give Susan a message and say hello, thank you for the show. It'd be really appreciated. And if you're on a podcast, appreciate and you'd like the show, please give us five stars. Say something nice. That'd be really appreciated. And thank you so much for listening. Until next episode, it's bye for now. Looking at the statistics that I have for YouTube and for my podcast apps, I have a lot of listeners and viewers that aren't yet liked and subscribed. So if you're on YouTube, like and subscribe, it's free. And if you're on a podcast app, please give me five stars. That'd be really cool. It helps other people find these great conversations, too. Thank you. [00:54:25] Speaker B: Sam.