[00:00:00] Speaker A: It's these kind of experiences are actually a lot more normal than we realize they are. It's just, it's spirituality is one. There's an interesting Gallup poll out of the US that asks people around, just everyday people that they survey, have you ever had a profound spiritual or religious experience that changed the course of your life? And it was like a one to five rating scale, about 41 or 43% of people. I forget the exact number, but it was almost half rated as a five out of five. That's a huge number.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Welcome to supernormalize, the podcast, where we challenge the conventional break boundaries and normalize the seemingly supernatural. Join me, CJ Barnaby, in the liminalist space to explore less charted realms of existence and to unravel the mysteries of life. Experience. Each episode I'm blessed with the opportunity to talk to regular people from across the world, where they openly share their understanding and wisdom in service to others. If you're looking to upgrade your life, you've come to the right place. Be sure to like and subscribe, and I'll bring you great transforming conversations each week. My treasured viewers and listeners. If you have a life story or healing modality or unique knowledge that you'd love to share, reach out to me at supernormalizedroton me. Let's together embrace acceptance of the supernatural and unusual, what it really is completely normal. Today on supernormalized we have Katie Turner, a registered psychologist based in Alberta, Canada, and she embarked on a unique journey because basically she was brought up and understood the world of reasoning and psychology from that sort of, you know, we'd call it the straight world, you know, like the normal world and.
But she was always being pushed along a certain path and ended up in India and Nepal, where she did a lot of meditation retreats and also worked at them as well, and had an eventual and gradual opening up towards her intuitive abilities, which were always there, but she needed to recognize, and in doing so, she started to integrate that into her practice to help others. So this show was about her understanding of that and what happened for her and how she helps others, and also her about her book, which is fuck toxic spirituality, which is quite a ambitious and explosive title. So yeah, it was a good talk. So enjoy this one on with the show. I will just pop in here and mention for a minute then. I've been working, doing two episodes a week, recording, editing and all of the promo, and it's come to a point now where it's too much for me. So what I'm going to do is back off a little and just start to release episodes as at one per week. And I'm trying to aim for a Tuesday or a Wednesday. So, yeah, please, if you're enjoying the show, keep on listening. Thank you so much.
Welcome to super normalized Katy Turner. I got your name right that time, which is good. And so welcome to the show.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: Thanks for having me here.
[00:03:59] Speaker B: Yeah. So, Katie, we were talking just before the show about how you were, you know, in my words, I said, you're living like a normal person. And then life changed dramatically for you in such a way that you embraced spirituality and integrated that into your whole life. Tell us about the Katy beforehand and what you were thinking. I mean, you had a different cosmology completely before you became this person that could work with spirituality as well.
[00:04:27] Speaker A: I guess so, yeah, I'd say. I mean, there's definitely still elements that I'm still like the same person in many ways, but as we all can grow and evolve, I think I, I first kind of, I unintentionally stumbled into more of a spiritual awakening. Now that I know more about, like, the research and potential pathways of how it can happen for people, I, I was engaging in things that would have opened that up. So like meta, like a very deep dive in meditation, energy work practices, breath work, all the things that can accelerate that. I just didn't realize that.
[00:05:06] Speaker B: So you were on a path that you didn't know you were on.
[00:05:08] Speaker A: Didn't really realize. Definitely, like guided and not really rational, making sense. But I think, I mean, it was, I got my masters in psychology first before any of the awakening spirits. So very western like research based, trained. So a lot of that is really conscious mind approaches, western psychology. I think it's getting a bit better about integrating spirituality in other senses. But in typical grad school and at the time I went, it really wasn't touched on a lot, so I didn't really.
Very rational, mind based. I didn't know if there was much beyond kind of 3d reality, like who knows what happens when we die, that kind of thing. Like, wasn't having weird.
I was intuitive at the time, but I realized now that my primary gateway was empathic. So it was feeling stuff. So I didn't realize I was intuitive. I was just picking up on like my feelings or emotions would change depending on kind of who I was around, but I thought it was just me.
It's a hard intuitive gift to navigate at first. And so I had no idea that I even was until probably later, twenties when I started exploring more intuition and spirituality. So it wasn't. I mean, I didn't kind of believe in any of that. Then as my own awakening started happening, I started having more and more experiences with expanded states of consciousness and things I couldn't really.
And things that would come back and be validated in different ways. So it was kind of a slower, like, gradual awakening over time and a longer process. But, yeah, now I very much live in both worlds.
[00:06:50] Speaker B: Nice. What drew you to psychology in the first place, though?
[00:06:53] Speaker A: I was always interested in it.
I also think.
I mean, looking back, I think there's a soul path piece for it for sure that I wasn't aware of and that I didn't, didn't know at the time, but part of the, like, empathic family of origin stuff, I was always kind of like the little helper, peacekeeper, like, taking on too much. So I think some of it was maybe some of my own stuff might have drew me to it in maybe not the best ways.
And then I also, like, on the empathic side from a very young age. It's like people would usually tell me a lot of things, like open up really quickly, and I didn't really know what to do with it all the time. And I was always just interested in psychology. So I just kind of kept following, following that interest and following that path, and things really lined up.
[00:07:41] Speaker B: That happens to me nearly all the time when I sit down and talk with people. They just tell me absolutely everything and then go, I don't know why I told you all that. I'm like, I don't know either.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: Sometimes it's great, and sometimes you have to get bad at listening. If you're, like, on the bus or.
[00:07:53] Speaker B: Something and you're like, I don't know, bad at listening. I love it. Yeah. Okay, so you're on this path being led by something towards a life change. And what happened there?
[00:08:08] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I think it was. I got pretty burnt out after I finished my master's degree and was working full time, and I've burned out before. I'm kind of a high functioner. But I ended up getting a one way ticket to India, and I ended up being there between India and Nepal for about nine months. And that's where I kind of deepen the dove into more of the, like, meditation.
I was wrestling with just some of the limitations of what I was being taught in traditional western psychology of kind of like, well, this is a. Because sometimes you'd have people really showing up and trying hard, doing the work, and they may have been in this community agency for years and, like, still talking about the same stuff, and it doesn't seem to be moving. And some of the advice I had from, like, well meaning supervisors was like, well, sometimes it, like, support just helps people from getting worse. And it didn't fully sit right with me. I was just like, there's got to be more.
And, I mean, the work I do after I'm kind of going through my awakening now, I do a lot more. I think conscious mind focus is helpful to a certain degree. It's helpful to be aware of our thoughts, to have strategies, to make plans. But our mind really is like an iceberg where we have a lot of unconscious, subconscious stuff going on. We might have experiences from our childhood that are showing up as old emotional memory, past trauma. I mean, even on the spiritual awakening side, it's like that opened up ancestral connections. And so sometimes there is stuff that we're carrying that didn't even start with us anyway. So just looking at rational thought, like, it doesn't get deep enough to really shift that.
[00:09:43] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. Yeah. And, yeah, you need something that goes beyond the frame, really, to be able to remove those ancestral scars, really?
[00:09:54] Speaker A: Yeah. And also realizing I was a highly sensitive person and also empathic of, like, a lot of it was intuitive ability, I was like, oh. A lot of the stuff that I thought was wrong with me was actually an intuitive ability. And I work with a lot of empathic clients because the mental health and medical system doesn't really recognize it. It's not studied enough yet. There isn't enough, really, like, research validated evidence with it. But I really do believe empathic ability is a real thing because, like, I am early in my intuitive awakening experience, it was my dominant sense. I've worked with it a lot now, so it's not as much anymore because it frankly sucks when you first happen in our culture, you're kind of just this sponge that you can pick up on other people's emotions or even physical sensations. And the world as a whole isn't doing so great all the time. So we can almost end up absorbing a lot of stuff and carrying a lot of other people's emotion. And I think, like, again, western psychology doesn't recognize that. It'll give us tools to, like, process our own emotions. But if we're picking up other people's emotions and feeling that in our body, then it's more about recognizing, like, is this even mine or not? And if it's not mine, how do I actually release this and not take it on as much in the same way.
[00:11:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Would you say that transpersonal psychology, though, is actually leaning more towards this sort of connection to deeper spirituality?
[00:11:21] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. I've done training in transpersonal. I had a number of years after my spiritual awakening where it took a lot of different traits, like looking for different training, because to do it as a registered health professional, you do need existing models and evidence based practices. You can't just pull in shamanism or something that doesn't have an evidence base around it.
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, for sure.
So what happened in India and Nepal? I mean, you must have been touring around and been touched by certain things to be able to.
[00:11:51] Speaker A: Yeah, I was volunteering. Like, I volunteered at a few, like a meditation center. I also participated in a few more intensive ones, too. So that's where it just kind of started. And I started realizing more of the sensitivity to different energy and how things would change. It was definitely an ongoing process, though. So once I came back to Canada, I still continued.
[00:12:09] Speaker B: Yeah, right.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: To explore different trainings, different mentorships. I was really. I really had it separate and was in the spiritual closet in my professional life for a really long time.
[00:12:21] Speaker B: Where do you think that you got that initial skepticism towards spirituality? Was that something that was just a part of say? I mean, it can happen when you're in a family where people just don't even see anything or believe anything. So which is what I think it's.
[00:12:33] Speaker A: Like family and kind of the, like the culture I grew up in as well, too. Like, I think we'd go to church on special occasions, but there wasn't a lot of talk about it western culture wise.
It's still not that normalized, especially if we get into the medical model of things like the Diagnostic statistical manual. If you start talking about altered states of consciousness, communication with paranormal, sensing other energy, hearing, guidance from your guides or ancestors that can get flagged in some wrong ways. I mean, sometimes it can be like, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's.
It's not as well understood. So it can bring up concerns and I think people can be rightfully concerned of. Like, do I share this with someone? On the flip side, spiritual community sometimes can go too far in saying it's only, oh, it's just a spiritual awakening. And it's like, this actually could be a mental health episode too, though. Like this. Sometimes if people are destabilized, some of the spiritual symptoms can really overlap with us. Like an episode of something and someone may not realize they're in that. And that's. Yeah, and I believe like, I really think we need to be stable and be able to function in the 3d world while also exploring the spiritual, but not at the expense of being able to function here.
[00:13:53] Speaker B: Look, I was lucky way back when. I went through a spiritual, spiritual emergence, you know about spirit. Yeah. And I, so I was going through a spiritual emergence and I was being coaxed along by Sharmin, which was a spirit in another world, to actually do all these certain things. And it all turned out to be true, which really blew my mind and was led to that book, spiritual emergency by Stanislavskroff and Christina Groff at the time by that shaman. I didnt know that book existed. I read that book and it made me feel like I was normal. I was like, what the hell is going on? And not long after that I met a transpersonal psychologist and talked to her all about what happened, and she said, oh, thats all right, youre normal. And I said, well, how do I know that I'm actually normal? She said, you still have your observer. Yeah, observer. That it becomes an episode that we need to treat. And I was like, oh yeah, okay, great.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: So it was a wild time, I can tell you, but uh, yeah, um, just to realize that, um, I wasn't actually crazy, it was just, I was opening up to a greater spirituality at the time was massive. So, um, you know, sometimes when people don't have that support, it can go the wrong way completely. So.
[00:15:03] Speaker A: For sure, yeah, yeah.
[00:15:06] Speaker B: What advice do you have for those struggling to integrate their own intuitive gifts into their lives?
[00:15:12] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it really depends. It's so individual for where people are.
The first thing I'd say is make sure it's like safe, stable, grounded. Most people are going to be fine with that, but every once in a while, if someone does have like risk or history or may need like one on one guidance with that, it's, it's not wanting to be too destabilizing, because sometimes a spiritual awakening can be traumatic, especially if people have an unprocessed history of like childhood trauma, other risk factors. So, yeah, it's not always like, the goal is not always to open up as fast as possible, but if it is stable, then I would.
It's, sometimes, there's a few things. One is actually kind of making the space for it to come in like meditation.
It's kind of, we're so used to being in our rational mind and like racing thoughts in our kind of culture and world that it's really, it's harder for intuitive information to come in through that sometimes keeping a journal or, like, records of things that you're. Even if you're not sure if it's intuition, it can help you refer to it over time. And synchronicities or signs are a big one, like, literally noticing those, like, divine coincidences. I had a lot of those. Still do.
I kind of a general rule of thumb, if, like, there's something strangely, like, okay, this is weird. This has come up, like, three times in a short period. I'll usually be like, what's going on with this? Yeah, and the other one is, like, really finding your dominant intuitive gateway, because we all tend to have intuitive abilities, kind of like any natural ability where people have, like, some level of pre existing skill set. Almost like some kids are really good at math. Some take to sports right away. Some people are kind of always intuitive, or they're just more strongly connected to it. But it is a skill that anyone can develop. So it's. It's more that, you know, some kids might have to work a lot harder to get better at sports and put in more time and more hours into it. So it's. If it is something someone wants to develop, it's more about really, like, putting in that time and practice. And when you find out what your, like, dominant sensory gateway is, because some people, people, it is like, just suddenly knowing. It might be, like, audio. It can be more visual. It can be more of that empathic or feeling. It can just be less, like, a sudden kind of download of information without knowing why you know it. But the more you pay attention to your dominant gateway, like, that's the one that'll be more reliable, that you'll have more access to information, and the other ones start opening up or evolving over time. Yeah. And I do have a free quiz on my website that, like, helps give an idea of what that would be and give some, like, a six week challenge to, I'm gonna have to do that.
[00:17:52] Speaker B: I'm gonna have to do that test. All right. Literally, before I, you know, got up to come on the show here this morning, I was laying there, and I often have this with spirits. They pop into the room and make visitations and say things to me. And this one was a middle aged man that popped in and got right next to my ear, and he says hello. And I'm like, okay, great. That's great. Now what? And he disappeared. I was like, you just wanted to say hello. Okay.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: I had to put boundaries up as my gifts opened up, I had to put up, like, energetic boundaries because they just would come all the time. And I was like, I can't like you guys if you were actually physical. Like, I'd get a restraining order. Call the police if you like, woke me up at four in the morning. This isn't okay. We got to work on the spiritual boundaries. And you can come for specific reasons and specific times.
[00:18:37] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. All that makes sense. I mean, it doesn't happen a lot of times, but it happens, you know, fairly often. So I'm not too concerned about it. And another time it happens is when I'm. When I go to meditate, too. So because I sit in that space, you know, when you get into that really deep space where everything just opens up, that's when I start to have, you know, people drop in and say hello. So it's not.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: You want that opening, like, people often want to open, but I always am cautious of, like, you want to open, but, like, people seem to have different things of, like, what will come in or, like, what they'll access to. So it's like, sometimes you want slower opening to make sure you have that protected space. And it's not like it's comforting, it's helpful. It's not, like, dark or scary or upsetting.
[00:19:20] Speaker B: Yeah, it's never been really dark or scary upsetting for myself, and I've never really concentrated on trying to open it more. So, you know, I know that there's a skill there. I probably should just work on it. So. And it doesn't really disturb me enough to want to put up boundaries to stop them from doing things.
So. Yeah, interesting stuff. All right, so how do you address misconceptions people may have regarding spirituality in a psychological practice?
[00:19:47] Speaker A: Yeah, well, again, I guess it depends on kind of what people are bringing in. That's.
I'd have to almost narrow that question a little bit more.
I think there's common things that can come up. It's part. That question is a big part of, actually, like, why I wrote the book I wrote about, like, toxic spirituality, because I found there's so many repeating themes that just kept coming up over and over again with different people over the last, like, decade and a bit since I've been focusing on this area.
And so I think, like, the talk about, you know, like, is this. It's these kind of experiences are actually a lot more normal than we realize they are. It's just. It's. Spirituality is. When there's an interesting Gallup poll out of the US that asked people around, just everyday people that they survey, have you ever had a profound spiritual or religious experience that changed the course of your life. And it was like a one to five rating scale. About 41, or 43% of people. I forget the exact number, but it was almost half rated as a five out of five. That's a huge number to say, like, 100%. Basically, this changed my life. And for me, like, even, like, the work I do, it was so clearly guided. I talk about the story in the book, too, but it's so. It's like. That's pretty common. People have it a lot. Oftentimes when people lose a loved one, they'll have things of, like, dreaming about them or, like, smelling their perfume or stuff happening where they're like, it feels like there's a sign from them or something. But it's like our western kind of medical model, I think, is, like, people are afraid of talking about it publicly, basically, for fear of being, like, people will think you're kind of, quote unquote crazy or, like, discredited.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: So, yeah, we need to dispel that, that notion because it's really not helped our society evolve. In fact, it's actually stopped people from actually really being. I've seen, yeah. You know, because it is a natural part of our evolution, and I think that as we're going along, it is actually becoming more acceptable to talk about these things. So in time, you know, will heal and, yeah, we become that magical race of beings that we all are.
[00:22:07] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. There's a really. I don't know if you've heard of the book the awakened brain.
[00:22:12] Speaker B: The awakened brain. I've heard of it, but I've never read it.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: It's really good in terms of, like, she does a. She's a doctor. Forget if she's a psychiatrist or neurology. Anyway. She's out of the US. She stumbled upon the benefits of spirituality for mental health. Wasn't searching for it.
[00:22:29] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:30] Speaker A: But she does an awesome job of really explaining, like, here's the neuroscience. And one of her kind of concluding, like, her theories is that our brains seem to actually be wired and designed to communicate with this, like, bigger field of consciousness. And, like, doing so increases our resiliency. It reduces our likelihood of depression or anxiety.
It's like, we're basically inherently wired to be a part of this field, to communicate with it, to get deeper insights and guidance from it, and to, like, going through that kind of, like, dark night of the soul. And that connection to that source is really, like, it's like, that's the purpose of it. So it's. And she just does a really cool job of connecting it with all the science space.
[00:23:11] Speaker B: Yeah, well, personally, I've always thought that we're antennas, and depending on how we tune ourselves is how life plays out. So, yeah, I'm definitely gonna have to look up that book and read it, but thanks for that. So can you talk about any of your successes working with people in helping them adjust their lives to their newly found spiritualities?
[00:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I could think speak to kind of general themes. I don't share, like, any case, like, individual stories, but I would share my own stories just because I'm comfortable to do that.
[00:23:44] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
[00:23:45] Speaker A: And I think general themes is, like, I think a big thing for people. There can be a lot of relief in someone being able to talk to someone who has the kind of mental health side of things as well as the spiritual side, because it's almost like, okay, fifth, like, this is safe. I'm not going crazy. Like, I don't need to worry about this. I can actually, like, safely explore this and kind of having, like, a tether to someone, too, where it's like, okay, I'm not worried about this going too far, that I'm going to, like, destabilize or lose, because a lot of times, I mean, the majority of my clients, that's not what's happening. There's usually, like, it's usually spiritual gift stuff, and they're actually very stable.
So I think, like, intuition is just such a, it's such a powerful guidance piece. It's most of the things we really stress about or are torn up about in terms of, like, do I stay in this job or go, do I start the business? Like, what should I do with my boss or this relationship? Like, we can analyze that stuff over and over again and ask for so many different opinions, but when we can get really clear and get really clear on what feels right for us in this unique circumstance and have that guidance, it's such a stronger way to kind of proceed in the world. And you can just have so much more knowing of what's right for you and not needing to ask everybody else for a lot of opinions and guidance. And I help people kind of connect with that for themselves and also because I agree with you in that channel piece, but it's kind of like turning to a radio signal. It's like sometimes you have static on the line.
[00:25:14] Speaker B: Exactly. But you have to be.
[00:25:17] Speaker A: Yeah, sometimes you got to clear out the static and, like, usually we have to clear out when it's more emotionally charged topics and we're more invested in it, we got to clear out more to the static to kind of arrive at that knowing. So sometimes that is. That may involve work of, like, okay, this may be some trauma work or some belief system work or other experience work that's coming in and making it hard to see this clearly right now.
[00:25:41] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now it's good to be able to actually identify what is actually real and helpful.
[00:25:49] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:25:51] Speaker B: Uh, okay, so, as someone who's engaged deeply with various non traditional therapies, which ones have you found most impactful?
[00:26:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's the stuff that, I mean, I'm. I'm not out to, like, bash western or cognitive approaches. I think there's help. Like, there is a benefit to those. And I see our path as almost like a spiral staircase. So I think sometimes there's, like, certain tools that are more helpful at certain levels of that. But once you have the basic understanding, you can kind of see your patterns. You can be like, I think I'm doing this because of this. Oftentimes, people need, like, deeper, deeper approaches that work more with the nervous system, whether that's, like, more somatic work, trauma processing. It's like, how do you move. Move these energies through our body, like, help our brain process it in a different way, not just get caught in the cognitive story of it. Like, those types of tools are a lot more transformational.
And then.
And I think it's some of those depth pieces. Again, it's different depending on what's kind of coming through. But it's, I'd say for anyone who's looking to kind of do the work, it's usually about finding, like, someone who you feel comfortable working with and you feel you can build a relationship with, because that's number one. And then not all, like, not all therapists have that deeper level training. So it's also finding, like, someone who can navigate those spaces. When you get into the spiritual spaces, like, sometimes you might need to work with more than one person. You might have spiritual support somewhere, like a spiritual emergency practitioner, someone through one of those resources.
And even if you have a mental health provider who's open to it but doesn't fully get it, you can have a team instead of. Because I do know other therapists and people who, they don't specialize in it, they wouldn't know what to do with it, but they're like, yeah, I feels like something's going on there. I just don't know. It's not my area. I don't know how to help them with that, send them over to me or someone like me.
[00:27:52] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Do you ever work with people that have been caught in problems with spiritual teachers, healers or communities? And how do you.
[00:28:02] Speaker A: Yeah, how do you.
[00:28:02] Speaker B: How do you work? Oh, that must be.
[00:28:05] Speaker A: Yeah, no, that's a big part of the book, too. Like, a lot of writing. Like, there was a whole section that I was like, rage writing it.
[00:28:12] Speaker B: We should tell people the name of the book. Toxic spirituality.
Now, obviously, you gave it that name for a reason because you were quite angry about.
[00:28:22] Speaker A: Oh, well, I just, like, I was getting very frustrated with it, too, because when I went through my awakening again, it's not easy. If you google spiritual awakening symptoms, you get such a wild west, like, splattering of answers and advice and people popping up. You don't get many professionals like, and I'm not saying professionals have all the answers at all. There's very skilled, like, very integrity healers. It's just such an unregulated space, and people can be very vulnerable going into that. That I know there's mistakes I made in that area when trying to find, like, non traditional helpers and because it took me a while to find anybody in the western field that could even speak to this. So I worked with different people from different, like, completely unregulated or other areas first. And some of that was great. Some of it was really not.
And so I think there's. I just would be processing so much, and I'd say, like, either clients being hard on themselves, like, taking on belief systems that weren't helpful or we're really slowing them down, or to being basically, like, working with practitioners, that it wasn't a good. It wasn't good for the client to from kind of lower level. Like, this was regret or mistake to, like, coming in with more trauma or even complex trauma because this person, like, seems like a dangerous type of personality who really actually preyed on them.
And there was a lot of violations in many different ways. So it's. I think there's that piece of, first of all, like, intuitive ability and spiritual ability. Being able to, like, talk the talk or even having high level of gifts does not mean somebody's, like, more evolved or, like, enlightened or has the person, like, a safe personality.
We also have to assess for, like, what's the emotional maturity level? Like, are they accountable? Because, again, I think most people in those spaces are really well meaning, but sometimes it can get murky because it can be an unregulated space. And I mean, I've even heard, like, really weird teachings and things of, like, oh, you know, implant a belief in your client so that if they ever need anything, they always come to you. And I'm like, whoa, that's super. That's super messed up. Like, oh, it's so weird. It's like a spiritual marketing technique. And I'm like, you don't ever do that. I would never send anyone to anyone who's doing that. It's like, you do your work. You work on your own, like, scarcity stuff. You work on your own stuff separately. And, like, that's. That's not okay. No.
Can someone. It's. Can someone kind of hold, like, clean, energetic space where they. They have their own work, they're doing their own shadow work, like, they're working with their parts. They can put that aside just to be of service and not be, you know, wanting to do your best to help someone, but not having your ego involved in it in the same way, like, not trying to be attached to the outcome or trying to force things to happen in the energetic field. Some people get predatory with, like, money stuff or, like, guilting people into, like, spending a lot with them or, like, spiritually gaslighting them to be like, oh, well, nobody else is doing, like, seem to mind, or, like, so there can be some shady stuff that happens and there's no.
[00:31:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I know there's a lot of.
[00:31:37] Speaker A: Good in there, too, but it's just like, yeah, I'm not trying to paint it all as, like, everything's bad. I mean, there's really great people in those spaces, too, but it's just, I want people to have something to look at or come back to so they can recognize earlier on of, like, is this happening or not?
[00:31:51] Speaker B: Yeah. Right.
[00:31:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:31:53] Speaker B: I ran into a lady that was involved with a group in Byron Bay that was a spin off of the Rajneeshas, and she was following this guy, was a 60 year old dude around, and, yeah, basically worshipping this guy because he was giving all these spiritual gifts and telling all these things. And, you know, and I would. I'd analyze what she was talking about. That's just crazy, you know?
And after a while talking with her, I got her to understand that, no, no, no. This guy's just an old dude that's parasiting on you because you, to put it plainly, your daddy issues.
[00:32:33] Speaker A: Right, right.
[00:32:34] Speaker B: And she sort of started to see through it and eventually pulled away from that, you know, parasitical relationship. But it was really odd, you know, she was giving me money and all sorts of things. I'm like, what the hell's going on here?
[00:32:46] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Money. I mean, it seems like sexual abuse, other things happening. Like, it's just, like, it's. There's not always clear boundaries. And I think people can be like, you. You have these weird things going on already. You don't even know who to turn to or who to talk with. Yeah. So. And a lot of times, people are really genuinely on a path where they're like, I want to be the best version of myself. I want to connect with this, like, love and this connection. So you can. I mean, I.
And because I think, like, sometimes you can kind of go in, like, a baby deer to a wolf's den without realizing you're in a wolf's den. So I think it's more being, like, spiritual spaces are not immune to this. Like, we have to. These types of personalities can be everywhere, and sometimes, like, they can latch on and seem very charismatic. They can have large followings. Like, they may not be someone who's actually in integrity or safe to be working with people, though.
[00:33:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But the problem is, is sometimes when you're looking, you don't realize what you're lacking is causing that person to turn up and you become addicted to them.
[00:33:50] Speaker A: Yeah. And it's also, like, I think it was part because, I mean, I've kind of had my little practice and kept it there. And it's a lot of. It's word of mouth. I have some stuff on my website that you kind of see it. But there is research around, like, professionals and academics who've had spiritual experiences or spiritual awakenings. And for many of them, it's changed the course of their work. It's changed the course of what they're researching. And most people there, again, don't speak about it publicly for, again, fear of being discredited. But part of my reason for kind of taking the lead to speak about it is, well, I do have the training to back it up. And then the other side of it is, like, most of the people speaking about it aren't regulated. And I don't think that, like, serves people to just have anyone and everyone talking about it. I think there needs to be more voices of that can help people really sort out, like, what's helpful for you, and where might this not be helpful? Or where might it not be an appropriately boundaried relationship?
[00:34:51] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:34:52] Speaker A: Or even harmful.
[00:34:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, sometimes people can't even identify it until they.
They run into somebody that just questions it, you know? And.
Yeah, that can be tough to even get out of some people, because, you know, like, the cult things actually exist.
People don't.
[00:35:10] Speaker A: Yeah, the cult. And then there's also, like, it's just. I think it's one of the.
You know, there's really great coaches out there, but it's. In any unregulated industry, it's like you could have. Someone could just call themselves that and have no training. Someone could have very minimal training. And. And I'm not saying all therapists are perfect. I mean, most of our liability stuff is people making ethical violations or something happening there. But at least there's, like, anyone who's gone through that rigorous training process is, like, they know better. Like, they full on know better, and they didn't tend to something within themselves. And there's steps someone can take. Like, there is accountability. People can. There's disciplinary action. People can lose their license. There can be funding for someone to get support somewhere else if they've been harmed by a professional. So I think it's. It's not saying it won't happen with a professional, but it's probably less likely than. Or you need to do more of your own research if you're going into, like, unregulated spaces, because I think sometimes people just don't have the professional level of training to say, like, you need to keep your stuff separate from the client work. Like, if you're stressed out about money and suddenly now you're pressuring someone, being like, well, you're not invested in your spirituality, and I. Cause I need this money to pay my rent. And pressuring your, like, student to now, like, take on this, like, feel like they're responsible for that for you.
[00:36:31] Speaker B: That's.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: And I've heard so many stories of things like that, and it's, like, so inappropriate.
[00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah, very, very.
So red flags. I mean, do you have, like, a. Like, a short list of something that people should be looking for?
[00:36:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I think I have, like, a whole, like, there's a little chapter on it. I think there's things of anyone who's using, like, more, like, God complex. If they seem to be, like, they're the only answer, they're the only way. There's only one path for them. Don't ever question anything they're doing. Like, some of the ones who are really not in alignment, like, someone I, like, initially trained with and then broke ties with, it's like. It's like they don't honor their own things, and you try to ask them about it, and then they'll kind of gaslight you of, like, you're not spiritual enough. And it's like you didn't honor your contract. Like you're ripping people off straight up.
But then I think it's like, it's like, can they take feedback? Is it, do they, do they do their own work separately? There should never be like a fear or like, control type issue when you get into psychic realm. Sometimes people really, like, freak people out with messages or like, use a lot of. They can be like, fear tactics with it. There's a difference between, like, I really think in my, like, in my opinion, with working with this thing, I think you would benefit from this. I would recommend these steps, but I think you have to detach from, like, whether that person works with you or not and really want them to get the best support for them. Not like I don't want someone working with me that is going to put them in a really stressful financial situation to work with me. I'll refer them to other places when I don't have spots to take on something lower.
But it's like, are there those kind of boundaries in place?
Yeah, I'd say those are some of the big ones. And then it's also like the emotional maturity, some of the personality factor pieces, I think those are for many adults, it's helpful to kind of recognize, like, markers of emotional maturity in any important relationship. Like if we're going to work for someone, marry someone, anyone that has a big impact on your life, it's like, okay, can they regulate their own emotions? Can they take feedback constructively? Like, do they go into gaslighting or like the Darvo, like, deny attack, reverse victim, offender? Like it's always poor them or like, it never goes anywhere. They're explosive. They can't manage themselves. They're in a victim mentality. Like those kind of like people who are there and who aren't actively working on that, who aren't taking responsibility, can create a lot of drama and conflict where.
[00:39:03] Speaker B: Yeah, I can understand that. It's. Fortunately, it sounds like, you know, some of my past girlfriends, so luckily I'm married now.
So when you work with people, do you work one on one in person or can you work with people over Zoom, for example?
[00:39:21] Speaker A: Well, I'm all virtual, but I am, like, for the psychology part of it, it is very regulated by province or state. So I can only work in Alberta and there's a few other provinces now that allow for virtual with registered psychologists within Canada. But I can't go outside of that. So I've done like, consulting and things for companies or like mental health presentations, part of where I'm wanting to move because my own intuitive guidance has been coming through in the last few years to really push beyond and to share more information with more people who could benefit. So I'm. I don't know what that's going to look like yet. Right now, it's kind of the book speaking, and I. I'm thinking I'll probably be developing some type of courses or other things where people can. It won't be therapy, but people can get access to the information because. Because I want it to be more accessible and have, like, a more pay based on where you position yourself kind of model so that it's not so because not everyone.
Yeah. Has the same means to access everything.
[00:40:23] Speaker B: Excellent.
So, Katie, we're coming towards the end of the podcast. How do people find your book and you to be able to connect with our services?
[00:40:34] Speaker A: Yeah, everything's on my
[email protected]. so the test is there. There's a page for the book there.
[00:40:43] Speaker B: Okay, great. What I'll do, I'll actually put that into the show notes so everyone can find your site nice and easily. And I'm going to do that test myself. I need to find out more what I need to work on. Yeah, I will.
And I wanted to thank you very much for coming on the show today and talking about your understanding of psychology and its integration with spirituality.
[00:41:07] Speaker A: Thank you for having me.
[00:41:08] Speaker B: You're welcome. All right. I'll just say goodbye to listeners.
Well, that was a good talk with Katie and to get an understanding of her integration of the two worlds of psychology and spirituality. I mean, they're not much different, really. It's just a matter of opening up that psychology edge a little bit more, because there is a lot of studies now that have proven, as she mentioned in that book, that she had read, the awakened brain that connect all the dots together. To say that spirituality is a big part of ourselves in so many ways. So if you've enjoyed today's show, please, and you're on YouTube, like and subscribe.
And if you're on a podcast app and you think somebody would benefit from hearing this show, please forward to them right now. That'd be very nice and very appreciated because more ears means, you know, other people get to hear it, too. Okay? So thank you so much for listening. Until next episode, it's bye for now.
