Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: And you know, when things happen, especially at that young sort of age where we're really very self centric, then, and we don't understand what's happening for other people. But if we can go back, you know, either in therapy or with the help of a plant medicine, particularly in the psychedelic space, you can see all of the memories that you had and realize that the perspective or the narrative that you told yourself was actually wrong. It didn't play out like that.
[00:01:19] Speaker B: Welcome to supernormalize, the podcast, where we challenge the conventional break boundaries and normalize the seemingly supernatural. Join me, CJ Barnaby, in the liminalist space to explore less charted realms of existence and to unravel the mysteries of life. Experience. Each episode I'm blessed with the opportunity to talk to regular people from across the world, where they openly share their understanding and wisdom in service to others. If you're looking to upgrade your life, you've come to the right place.
Be sure to like and subscribe, and I'll bring you great transforming conversations each week. My treasured viewers and listeners. If you have a life story or healing modality or unique knowledge that you'd love to share, reach out to me at supernormalizedroton. Dot me. Let's together embrace acceptance of the supernatural and unusual, what it really is, completely normal.
Today on supernormalize, you'll discover Andrew Edmonds. He's a pioneering figure in the world of shamanism, offering profound insights into the transformative power of tobacco shamanism, entity removal and psychic protection. This is quite a deep conversation that goes right into an understanding of tobacco shamanism and how it actually changed Andrew and how it actually works with his clients.
We do talk a lot about plant medicines and their effects, so if that's not your jam, then please skip to the next show. But otherwise, if you like it, dive right in and on with the show.
Welcome to supernormalize, Andrew Edmonds. Andrew, you're a modern day shaman, as far as I understand it, and you also do a lot of work with tobacco shamanism that must have been spurned by your own experiences in life. We're not actually led down a path like this unless we have our own experiences, and usually from that it causes us to go, what can I do about this? And I'm interested to know about you and how you got here and how did he change to get here. Who was Andrew Ederman's in the past? And why did you turn into Andrew Edmunds, the tobacco shaman?
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, thanks, CJ.
It's a bit of a long story.
I think you're right. There's always something that has occurred in childhood that's really set us down the spiritual path.
So in my case, yes, there was childhood traumas, comparatively to stories I've heard. Not that bad, but still it affected me deeply.
[00:03:56] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:03:57] Speaker A: And it left me with a. With a sense of questioning, like, what's the purpose of life?
It was hard and painful and kind of sucked at that age. So it really drove me to look deeper into the questions, the existential questions.
And I always had a bit of a sense that there was something more going on that I couldn't quite see. So, for example, when I'd go down, say, to the bush, and just be hanging out in the bush, occasionally I'd sense something around me, or I'd almost feel the weight of a gaze when someone's looking at you and you turn to look and there they are. So I turned to look, but I couldn't see anything with my eyes.
Something's going on. And I had this sense a lot.
I was also raised as a Catholic, so I went through, you know, first communion, confirmation, the whole deal.
And when I got to about twelve, I.
I realized I rejected Catholicism because it didn't match up with science, basically.
And I kind of threw the baby out with the bath water at that point and went full atheist at that time. I was also still looking into a lot of particularly eastern philosophy and spirituality. And there were the similar themes that they had in their philosophies. So they were things around reincarnation, karma and multiple lifetimes and deities and all this sort of thing.
And then I had a strange dream one night, and all I remember from this dream, as I woke up, it felt like I was in this big underground cavern and this sort of whirring noise was going on in my head, and I had the words death is not the end, just echoing and repeating in my head. And I woke up from that dream and it was like, experientially, I just come to realize that these things that I was reading about were actually true. And there was something coalesced in my psyche at that point and opened something up.
I also almost drowned when I was a little kid. Apparently I was pulled out of the pool and I turned blue and had to be revived.
So I wonder if something happened there as well. I don't remember this, but people have near death experiences and it does open up something and you bring something of that experience back.
So I think that played a part too, but that's a bit of a hypothesis.
And from there I kept reading about, you know, philosophy, psychology.
I read a lot about indigenous cultures, too.
And I noticed again, they had a few common themes. They all believed in the spirit world, they all believed in magic, and they all used some sort of plant, medicine, sacrament, be it ayahuasca cactus, a boga mushrooms. They all had something that they used to alter their state and in healing rituals and in initiations. So that got me really interested. I think I was about, I don't know, 15 or so, and I read about ayahuasca, and I'm like, oh, I need to go to Peru. And I looked at the, yeah, I looked at the price of a plane ticket. And of course I'm like, oh, God, I'm never going to get there.
Anyway. I guess I, you know, where I could back in these days, it was very hard to find art, medicine, community. So I experimented a little, as much as I could, and eventually found community at about, I think I was about 30 at this stage.
I was studying, you know, doing a lot of meditation, studying psychology and philosophy. I learned energy work like Reiki.
And then when I, when I found the, the opportunity to work with psilocybin and ayahuasca, deep shifts and healings happened.
And eventually I got to a point where I'd worked with ayahuasca a little, and I felt like I wasn't progressing any further. I kept getting back to this place, and it was like I was stuck. I'd done a lot of healing in that work, and that's when tobacco called me. And it was a real, it was a really strong call. I couldn't ignore this call.
So I went up to the northern rivers, did a dieter with a lady who then became my teacher, ended up going to Peru with no intention of being, of serving tobacco. I didn't even know tobacco was a plant medicine when I first came across it. I just felt that call.
So I went to Peru, did a whole lot of medicine work, and that was pretty arduous and tough work, let me tell you.
And eventually was initiated into this lineage and lo and behold, started serving tobacco as a medicine.
And, yeah, also most recently studied psychotherapy, did my grad dip in psychotherapy. And that really helped me put a lot of things together again. Helped me do my own inner work, which was really helpful, but helped then take this understanding of western psychology and psychotherapy and merge that with the traditional kind of shamanic, indigenous knowledge and put them together in a way that made a lot more sense to me. And I think people that I've brought through that.
Marrying our framework and understanding of how the mind works with that indigenous knowledge has been really powerful.
[00:09:51] Speaker B: Brilliant, brilliant.
So your tobacco work, I mean, I know that it's very, very hard to do because basically you're drinking liquid tobacco, which is very high in nicotine, and, you know, you end up, like most people end up purging, like, quite often with it, and then you've settled down into, like, a dissociated sort of state where the tobacco spirit then takes you on a journey and then shows you things. Um, so that helped you to clear energies, to be able to be more sensitive. Is that what you'd say?
[00:10:26] Speaker A: Uh, it cleared. It cleared a lot of blocks for me. I was still struggling with, you know, depression and anxiety and low self esteem and all that sort of thing. Um, and a lot of anger from childhood and everything else. Um, and it really. Yeah, the purge, it really pulls it out of you, you know, energetically clears it. Um, it doesn't kind of. I mean, initially in my tobacco work, I didn't overly journey and it didn't give me a lot of information. It just kind of came in and did its work and, you know, and then I'd see the results. Um, but I didn't really. Yeah, yeah, I didn't really understand the process that well, like, um, but yes, it. It did definitely make me more energetically sensitive. And when, when I finished this process, which is doing basically 14 week long dieters drinking tobacco very hard, by the end, I felt like almost like born again.
I had the image of my internal world being the impact site of the Tunguska meteor boom. Everything was just flattened and I was just like a blank slate, you know?
Yeah. So it cleared a lot out and I was super sensitive to the degree that I came back to Australia and if my partner was having her period at the time, I couldn't be near her. I couldn't sleep next to her. It was so painful because I could feel all that energy that she was working with it, like, oh, no, don't touch me. Just stay away.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yeah, you become a bit of a sponge for all the energy that's around you. I mean, did it actually get to the point where you're, you know, you got to the point where you're walking through the forest and instead of just sensing something and turning towards you could actually start to even see these beings that are around?
[00:12:34] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely more so, yeah, that psychic vision did, did open up and it's sort of.
It's something I still have to get out of my way to allow that to come through. You know, like, if I'm in my head, I struggle. But once I get out of my own way, it's like, okay, there it is. And the images pop in. Yeah. And, you know, one of the things I really noticed with tobacco, it's very strong protection. And I didn't really understand what that meant, protection.
So the most extreme example was around the full moon. I was pretty sensitive anyway, because I'd done a lot of energy work learning Reiki and some other energy systems, and they really helped open up my sensitivity too.
But around the full moon, for about two or three nights, I could barely sleep because the energy of the full moon was so strong.
When I came back. I came back to Australia sort of halfway through this process, had a bit of a break of a couple of months before going back, and I realized I could sleep through the full moon.
It didn't affect me at all anymore. I wasn't bombarded by all of this excess energy.
[00:13:49] Speaker B: Interesting.
[00:13:49] Speaker A: And so I had protection from the intensity of that energy, and I could go now to a shopping center.
I wasn't buffeted by everyone's energy, and I didn't even have to consciously shield my own energy. I just had protection from all the craziness.
And it served me very well, particularly in the tobacco work. So I have protection against all the stuff that's present. Um, and doing energy work. So I don't get, I don't get knocked around very often. Still happens occasionally, but, yeah, a lot of protection.
[00:14:19] Speaker B: Brilliant. Okay. I didn't actually realize that was a side of it. Okay. So, um, tobacco work is a, for clearing energy and granting protection. And does it actually also offer guidance as a part of your practice too? I mean, when you work with people, you're working with tobacco as a smoke, is that correct?
[00:14:37] Speaker A: In this case, it's. It's actually drinking a liquid.
[00:14:41] Speaker B: I drink liquid, yeah.
[00:14:43] Speaker A: As well as snorting it up the nose, which is pretty intense. A bit like half a, but a bit. A little bit stronger because it's a liquid rather than an ash.
And I'm also using the smoke and the icaro to call on the spirit of tobacco to help clear. Yeah, all of those things.
[00:15:05] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're setting up the resonances, putting everyone into accord with the icaro and taking them on a short journey. So what typically happens for the people when they work with you like this?
[00:15:19] Speaker A: There's a range of experiences. So some people are very, very sensitive, and almost as soon as they drink, they purge, and then they need to lie down. Um, and, you know, they might. They might.
They might feel a bit nauseous and sick for a while. Um, before that clears. And I've had a few people actually fall asleep somehow. I don't understand how, because it is such a strong. You know, the nicotine content is so strong, it keeps me and most people awake, you know, for hours and hours. Yeah, but there's a few people who've just fallen asleep.
There tends to be a lot of shifting of energy in the body, so you feel things moving and popping and releasing and that sort of somatic release of energy.
The guidance definitely comes through. And I get, as I'm serving them, I'm tuning into them and sort of working on them energetically, but also understanding a little bit about what's happening. So sometimes it's like they drink and the. The energy of tobacco moves down, maybe into the heart, and then it sits in the heart for a little bit, and then they might purge, or it might go all the way into the stomach and work a bit there, and then it comes up and they purge.
Not everyone purges all the time, but it's pretty common.
And then I've had a few people who I think they've worked a lot with, done a lot of medicine work and inner work, and they sometimes they just feel great. They just feel amazing. They're like, wow, can I have some more?
They're just buzzing.
[00:17:01] Speaker B: They're already tuned up, and all it does is just turn up the dials.
[00:17:03] Speaker A: So, yeah, it just gives this real power and energy that they now have access to. Yeah. But it clears a lot. And very interesting dreams, you know, when they do finally get to sleep or they're drifting in and out of sleep, all these interesting, crazy dreams come through that. And that's where a lot of the information comes through about what tobacco is actually clearing, because it often doesn't, you know, like, something like, ayahuasca will really talk to you a lot and will show you visually what's happening. Tobacco only does that for some people. For a lot of people, it just kind of does its thing. They purge, they feel the energy and they feel different, but they don't really understand much of what's happening. We'll talk about it a bit more the next day, but it's more afterwards they. They say, oh, my relationships have changed and I don't have these internal blocks. And, you know, maybe my depression and anxiety is a bit better.
Yeah, it's just a strange, strange medicine.
[00:18:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Right now I'm interested in that, I'm just thinking about what could those blocks be? If tobacco can get in there and kick them out?
What is happening? What's your answer?
[00:18:13] Speaker A: Good. Good question. Everything's an energetic thing at the end of the day, sitting somewhere in our body, and it comes through.
I'll give you an analogy that my teacher would use. Other medicines might come in and here's the garden that's overgrown, and they'll come and cut everything back. So everything's nice and clear, but things will grow back.
Her analogy was tobacco comes in and it pulls those things out by the roots so they don't grow back.
[00:18:43] Speaker B: That's good.
[00:18:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
It can also pull out entity attachments or attachments from other people. Like if people have kind of, whether knowingly or unknowingly, put psychic hooks into people or that's, you know, curses and things, it can also clear those, which has been pretty amazing to see happen.
I've had a few of those, yep. Yeah.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Wow. Cool. Cool. Yeah, no, I think I need to come and see you, but, yeah. Can you talk about the intersection between western and indigenous thought in your approach to shamanism?
[00:19:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean, I guess, you know, obviously I was raised in a. In the western framework and the psychological model and studied psych. And look, I think we've. We've come to this place in the west where probably all started from Descartes, I think, therefore I am, and we've gone off in this whole mental tangent and the medical model of where we are. And sure, that has some benefit, but we've lost contact with that deep spiritual, knowing, the energetic nature of things. So a lot in, let's say, psychology where someone, for example, says, I can hear voices or I can see spirits. From a psychological model, that's psychosis. And he will give you this antipsychotic and maybe we'll lock you up, etcetera.
From a shamanic perspective, you actually have an opening to the spirit world, and you can contact that spirit world. That's not to say always that psychosis or schizophrenia or something like that. Is that sometimes. Yes, it is mental illness. You know, if the voices start telling you to kill yourself or someone else, probably not things you want to follow, go and get some help. Definitely.
But often, you know, like if you displayed those symptoms in an indigenous culture, you'd be taken and trained as a shaman.
Yeah. Because you obviously have a gift to contact that spirit world. So, you know, it's looking at things from this more holistic perspective, not pathologizing everything like we do in the west, you know, realizing that there's something more to that. There's a spiritual emergence or a spiritual crisis, and that the spirit world, the entities are influencing us and the world all the time, they're all there. We just don't realize it. We're kind of like, you know, a fish in the water. We don't realize that we're in the water, but we're in the ether. And that's been affected by all of these external forces that we're not aware of. So, yeah, definitely a shift in perspective there. And they do marry together pretty well at the end of the day.
[00:21:43] Speaker B: Yeah, for sure. For sure. I mean, when Descartes come up with his ideas, at the same time, we actually had a very big science which was based around ether that got shunned over time because, you know, the mind took over. But, I mean, I believe we live in that ecology of souls that Terence McKenna talks about. And it's in parallel to this existence and this experience of life that we are in constantly. And spirits have influence on us. And it's not always good, but it's not necessarily bad either. So, yeah, it's a matter of recognizing the difference. And like you said, you know, they're saying awful things to you. That's usually not a good one.
Yes. Okay, so how do you navigate the differences in perspectives and practices to create a holistic healing environment for your clients?
[00:22:34] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess initially it depends a little where the client is at.
You know, are they open to the spiritual and have they explored that? Generally, the people that come to see me will have at least an awareness of that and maybe a little bit open.
But if they don't, we, we would start with more the psychotherapy approach. You know, let's, let's use the body and the unconscious to start to connect with your own inner wisdom, your own inner healer, you know, creating a safe space there.
I, because I'm energetically sensitive, I can tap into what's happening in the person as well. So they might be talking and I'll feel something, maybe in my heart, for example, and I'll say, yeah, just feel into your heart what's happening there. And they'll be like, oh, yeah, there's this sensation. Okay, let's bypass the cognitive mind and let's go into that.
But then there's other people that they're like, I don't feel anything in my body. You know, they just purely exist in their head, really.
I also integrate a bit of energy work in that. I find that's particularly useful for people who come in with a lot of anxiety or PTSD and that sort of stuff. We might start with psychotherapeutic work and maybe switch to Reiki for the last part of the session, and that just helps clear things and helps the body relax.
Those people will often fall asleep, actually, pretty quickly. You know, as soon as they feel safe and the body feels safe, boom, they're out.
They just needed to relax and rest.
[00:24:16] Speaker B: Yes, I relate to that because as soon as I just stop, I'm like.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
And I think there's something about, you know, when I.
When I was first doing a lot of this work, I'd have these reflections from people. Like, they'd say, oh, there's something about your energy, or, you know, all of these kind of.
I felt like I had to come and see you or that sort of idea. So I'm also holding an energetic, safe space in the therapeutic environment. Even if they're not really aware of what's happening, I'll sort of create space so that they. They can really feel that safety, and they can feel my energy strongly so they feel safe, and they know that I can just accept whatever they're going to say, and it is a safe space so they can talk freely.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Sounds like you attract the right clients because you're actually resonating in the right way. And, yeah, that's a bit of a beacon on the spirit world. And, you know, we do have spirit eyes that can see things, and I'm certain that people intuitively will be drawn to you because of that, because you do have a very calming sort of energy as it is, as you're being presented to me right now. And it's like he's a very calm, centered individual and you know your stuff back to front, which is obvious to me, and present it so well. I was going to ask you, how does it feel for you to be basically a bridge between worlds?
[00:25:55] Speaker A: Yes, it's a big responsibility, really, it is.
It's so fulfilling, this work to take people, especially from. Especially the people I see a lot where they do just live inside their heads and they're disconnected from their body and their emotions.
To see this typical progression where they get in touch with their feelings and what's happening in the body, they get in touch with their unconscious. They become more creative, happier, and I also see this transition.
People tend to become more oriented towards community and collaboration, and, you know, they start rattling off, I guess, you know, the typical almost hippie kind of expressions. You know, they get to a place where, oh, everything is love and light and it's all about community and energy. And I'm like, yes, yes. So they've often come from very rational backgrounds and I have too.
And I see this progression over and over again and I know it's building the new world, you know, it really is helping to create that beautiful new reality that we want.
[00:27:14] Speaker B: Look, I completely understand that progression and I even saw it myself. For example, I used to go to an ecstatic dance style called five rhythms. And where I was living at the time in Mullumbimby, the first few times I went like, these people dance like fucking hippies.
And I couldn't relate to it, right? I was like, this is so out of weird. Like, as I'm a trance dancer, I'll just go hard and been a raves from forever. But at this place I couldn't get into it at first. But then after about, probably about six or seven weeks, I'm dancing like them. Like I got it.
The body just became free and with that the mind and with that the soul. And, um, so, yeah, the changes are inevitable and there is that natural progression that happens and, yeah, it's a brilliant thing to see people flowering.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: It is, it is, it is so needed. Yeah.
[00:28:06] Speaker B: Oh, totally needed at this time. Um, okay, so what do you think? Is the future of shamanism and spiritual healing evolving in the modern world world, considering everything that you've learned so far?
[00:28:20] Speaker A: Yeah, look, the big shift that's happened and has been happening for a while, even in the underground, is the use of medicine, the psychedelics in particular, knowing the progression that happens and people opening up spiritually. And it's almost like they've opened the doorway to the legal use of these compounds because they're so powerful in healing, but they've done it, not realizing the massive shift that's going to actually take place in consciousness of society. That's right, yeah, absolutely.
[00:29:03] Speaker B: Go ahead.
[00:29:04] Speaker A: Oh, it just, it makes me laugh because, you know, obviously all the science is there as well, right. We've had studies going back to the sixties to show how powerful these compounds are, so it makes sense to use them in that psychotherapeutic model.
And I think even if in Australia you have to be like an inpatient in hospital at the moment. Talk about a horrible setting in a hospital. But still it has this effect of opening up consciousness and people have mystical experiences in that setting. So, yeah, that Trojan horse is well and surely loose, but it is a.
[00:29:45] Speaker B: Step in the right direction. That's, that's the best. The main thing, too right. I mean, to see society start to embrace these things and realize the potential benefits that can assist people in relieving tension, stress, trauma, depression, all of those things which are actually side effects of a, you know, basically an atheist mind, an atheist minded society.
Yeah, it's definitely a positive change. What has this done to you personally in regards to your spiritual cosmology? I mean, you said you were atheist before.
What are you now?
[00:30:25] Speaker A: I don't know what I'd describe myself as now.
[00:30:27] Speaker B: What do you believe in?
[00:30:31] Speaker A: I think, you know, when I started working with the plant medicine, it, you know, there's things, I always had a sense that were there, you know, when I could see those things rather than just feel them, I'm like, okay, they're real. There's really something, you know, seen as believing.
So that, that solidified that kind of belief I had. There was always a bit of doubt there before I saw them, but. But when I did see them, I knew.
I also, again, I'd been reading about reincarnation and this sort of thing, but experiencing the place that I could go to in a psychedelic journey.
I, you know, when I first went to that space, it felt really familiar. I knew I'd been there before, even though to me in this incarnation, it was completely new. So I knew experientially that I existed after the death of the physical body.
And again, things that were theory before was that everything was connected, energetically connected, and were so intimately connected to everything around us. And it was just crystal clear.
And the depth of the universe and how far everything actually went, it just showed me how vast the universe was and how little I knew. I felt like I was this little child that knew nothing in this vast, infinite universe. And that was beautiful, too. Humbling and also beautiful.
Yeah, it's just, it changed me so much. And, of course, that emphasis on community and collaboration, where before it was, you know, I was more. I was very individualistic. I had to do everything myself. I had to, you know, achieve and look after myself. So it was a beautiful thing to come across this really heart centered community in the medicine space, too.
[00:32:45] Speaker B: Yeah, I think we. We all go through that where we're pretty much trained by the colonial mindset that we are meant to be out for ourselves and to step on everyone else's head to get higher.
[00:32:58] Speaker A: Particularly as men.
[00:32:59] Speaker B: Yeah, particularly as men. Be ruthless, really. And I experienced a bit of all of that in high school myself and basically developed a cartesian mindset myself. I was quite blocked off from the world and. But still had this yearning. I actually did drown myself too. I should say that because, um, you said that before I drowned when I was five.
And, um, when I drowned, I went into a space that was the void, but it was beautiful. And I was enveloped with love and everything, and I just yearned for that. And so that drove, that drove me on another sort of, like, channel up as a part of my life.
And, uh, I happened to learn a lot about plant medicines by reading all these great books, but I didn't have any real access at the time. I didn't know what to do.
Happened upon DMT.
And, you know, this actually smashes your whole reality so severely that you have to admit the spirit world exists. Right. You just can't not deny it. And the first time I had it, I went in and I was in the other space, and I was pretty much, I was actually pulled aside by a praying mantis being, which was, I was explained to at a time, the person who, or the being that was in control of setting up your ability to communicate here. And if you don't see him first, then it's not going to work. I said, okay, well, see, I'll see him. And he turned up and he grabbed me and started putting all this information into me. And I was like, oh, what's going on? And once he released me, I was so astounded. I sat there and then I realized, oh, wait a minute, I can hear my breath. I didn't die. I'm actually in my room.
But I was so astounded at the time that I stopped breathing. I was just struck, totally awestruck. And the being, the mantis being said in my head, breathe. And I still didn't get. I was like, where'd that voice come from? You know?
And then he manifested in the room and pushed me against the wall so my chest would breathe.
[00:35:03] Speaker A: Oh, wow.
[00:35:03] Speaker B: And I was pushed against the wall. My chest was compressed.
Oh, my God. It actually could reach you to this reality as well.
So it changed everything instantly and also then spur me along another path.
[00:35:19] Speaker A: But, yeah, you know, interestingly, I think that's the experience of the vast majority of people. You can no longer deny that the spirit world is real. I do know people who've worked a lot with, with psychedelics that don't believe that, you know, it's all a manifestation of the unconscious. Very strange. I mean, how did you get there? I don't know. I don't quite know. At the end of the day, though, it doesn't really matter, like, what you believe. If you believe it's a spirit world or manifestations of the unconscious. As long as it has a real effect for you and you're getting knowledge and healing still changes you. Still changes you. Yeah, yeah.
[00:35:58] Speaker B: As long as it's towards the positive, that's a good thing.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Okay, so you've been doing some recent work with cannabis assisted psychotherapy. Do you want to talk about that?
[00:36:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So, you know, I think, like a lot of people, I came across cannabis and it was more, you know, we'd smoke and have a laugh with friends and, you know, eat garbage.
Yeah, yeah, the usual thing. Sit on the couch and watch tv and watch garbage.
And I admit, you know, I did get to a point where I was abusing cannabis, and that sounded good.
[00:36:35] Speaker B: Same thing happened to me.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a pretty common thing.
Then probably maybe about ten years ago, I actually realized cannabis helped with meditation and yoga and even, you know, martial arts. I do Tai chi and kung fu and things, and I found it really put me in touch with my body and more recently discovered that it could actually be really powerful for breath work.
And then I came across a book, this is maybe about a year ago, and it was called psychedelic cannabis by Daniel McQueen.
And he talked about using, you know, one, the power of cannabis, actually, and using different strains, combining them together to get a really effective blend to.
As a tool for inner work.
So as a quick example, like, if you have a heavy indica, it will be really relaxing, but you just kind of want to lie down and you can't really do anything. If you have a really strong sativa, it kind of fragments your mind. And there's sort of, for me at least, there's then one part of me in the experience of whatever I'm doing, and there's another part of me that's like observing and commentating about what I'm doing and what's going on. It's a horrible feeling, but if you combine the two, they kind of balance each other out. You have the mental energy and understanding, and also you're really connected with the physical body, and you can do.
You know, the first thing I worked with was Daniel McQueen had some guided meditations, and that was essentially a guided body relaxation. And then once your body's really relaxed, now you can start to feel into your energy and what's happening in the energetic field.
The first time I did this, I noticed there was a lot of tension in my lower back, where I hold a lot of tension, and the muscles kind of started twitching and spasming a bit, and I'm like, oh, this is interesting. And I'd done, in my psychotherapy training, I'd done some somatic experiencing and another thing called trauma release exercise, which is like shaking medicine, where the body starts shaking and releasing this kind of stuck energy in the body, survival energy or trauma energy in the body. And so I just thought, okay, I'm just going to go with this and I'm going to let my body shake. And initially, it felt like I had to sort of do it, you know, get it going a little bit myself. And then my back and my body just started twitching and twitching, and it got more and more intense and violent. And, you know, in the middle of it, my im arcing backwards, you know, and the whole thing shaking and shaking. And then it kind of released a bit. And I was like, ah. And my back felt like it released a bit.
And this happened a couple of times, and then it moved to a couple of different areas, and I was just like, whoa, something really interesting has just happened. And so I looked up cannabis and somatic psychotherapy.
I thought I was a genius for coming across this, of course, but someone else had already discovered the same thing.
So, you know, I realized, okay, so cannabis puts me, it connects me with the body, and, you know, it helps the body and the mind usually feel safe enough and relax enough to go into what's happening in the body. And I can sit with the uncomfortable feelings if there's pain or tension in the body or if there's grief or sadness. You know, that grief and sadness will often come up. Even if you just smoke cannabis, if it's sitting there, it will come to the surface, which I think is why a lot of people struggle with cannabis. They smoke and they expect to relax, but all the stuff that's sitting in the body actually comes up to the surface to be healed and cleared. And they're like, no, I don't like working with cannabis because it makes me anxious.
But anyway, this modality was essentially getting into that space where the body is relaxed enough that you can feel into the energy and like a somatic based process, sitting with whatever it is, intensifying the sensations that are there, allowing energy to twitch and move if it needs to.
You might get visuals that come up about what that energy is or what the story behind it is.
Basically like a psychedelic assisted psychotherapy.
But using cannabis is, I think, a lot safer because you can pull yourself out of the experience. You're not going to be sitting there tripping for, you know, six, 8 hours so, you know, it's a really, it's really powerful. And I started experimenting a bit with myself and then I had a few tests, test pilots, I'm going to say.
And these are typically, you know, people who had like, a medical cannabis license. They were already using cannabis for symptom management. So I said, look, don't smoke for a few days, so the tolerance drops down. Come in and we'll try this work. And the results have been incredible. The, you know, they're shaking. The body starts shaking really quite violently sometimes.
There was one guy who, his legs started shaking and his arms kind of twisting up and he was, after a while, almost kind of came into the fetal position still shaking, and then suddenly, boom, burst into tears.
And, you know, I was like, oh, that was all around my mum. And, you know, yeah, just incredible results. But surprisingly, you know, the semantic releasing that happens is quite violent. You know, it can be quite intense. So you've really got to prepare people.
Yeah, for sure what that might. And everyone at the end has said that was incredible. You know, I had no idea that cannabis could do that. So at the moment, we've kind of, you know, the medicalized cannabis in Australia where it's primarily being used for symptom management, which, yes, it's, it's better than using maybe pharmaceutical medications. There's definitely less side effects, but it can be used for so much more.
So, yeah, it's a really exciting area and legal. So if you have a medical cannabis license, we can come and do, you know, psychotherapy.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: Wow, that's very cool. Do you use any psychic drivers when people are actually going into the process with that? I mean, some, I know some shamans use drumming and rattles and things like that. What do you do?
[00:43:31] Speaker A: Yeah, so we are open ceremonially, you know, sage, the person call in, call in the elements and the spirits for support often then I'll just get people to lie down and we'll, you know, relax. Lying down on a mattress so you have a lot of room to move around.
Most people can find. They can drop into the energy and it's more. I'm guiding them in, you know. What are you feeling? I'm feeling this tension here. Okay. Feel that tension. Allow yourself to sit with it.
And as they sit with it, they might be like, it feels hot or like there's this block there. So they might get some visual imagery that comes up. Okay, let's use the visual imagery to help unfold the body process, but it's primarily informed by what's happening in the body.
Sometimes we will use a bit of drumming or a bit of breath work as well.
But typically people drop straight into that state and start this somatic releasing of energy and often getting visuals and a story that might be accompanied with that. So there's some understanding.
And then we might use more of the sound towards the end as they integrate, or maybe to help shift something. Might be a bit of drumming and rattling and that sort of thing. Um, but usually. Or even a bit of breath work at the start. Um, but. But for most, they can just drop straight in. Like, there's a lot of, um, a lot of people already, especially if there's anxious energy, you can already see it in their body. Like one guy, he. The first time he sat down, his legs were already jumping all over the place and. And we went into that in just the psychotherapy, but then with the cannabis, I said, I'm sure as soon as you lie down and feel into your energy, your legs are going to start shaking. And sure enough, that's what happened. And that's a suggestion. It was a suggestion, but I knew what was going to happen. Right, and.
[00:45:31] Speaker B: Excellent. So when people come to you, do they actually come with an issue or they just say, I've got anxiety, and then you trace it into something? Or do you do, like, timeline therapy or anything like that?
[00:45:45] Speaker A: More often they come with symptoms, you know, like anxiety or something.
Occasionally, if they've done a lot of inner work, they might come in with a specific block.
So there was one fellow who came recently, he had a. He's like, there's this hard kind of block in my stomach, in my sacral. And he already had a bit of understanding, you know, it kind of came with a relationship with his mum. So it's like we had a. We had a real solid intention to go in and similar sort of thing. We opened. He just lay down after that, and the shaking started, you know, the legs and the stomach kind of area started twitching.
And that same process of me guiding him through, you know, what does it look like, this block? What does it feel like?
Allow yourself to really feel the energy of that. Even though it's painful and hard.
And in not long a time, it shifted and it actually moved out kind of down, out through his hand on the right side, I think, again, because he'd done a lot of work, he moved through that really easily and I could feel that the block had gone at that point. And he said, oh, wow, I'm done. And I'm like, feel into that area again, because it's not finished. I had a sense of what was going to transpire, but I didn't tell him that in the session because he was already in.
So he felt back into it. And he's like, oh, yeah, there's something there.
And then he said, I'm getting all these flashes of imagery, but it doesn't make sense. And I'm like, okay, what are you seeing? He's like, well, as me, you know, I'm playing with toys and I'm doing. And then he goes, oh, hang on. They're all memories of me at about five or six years old. I'm like, okay, good. So we've come to the root of at least your conscious realization of what was happening.
And he said, okay, now I see my mum in front of me, but she's standing up. I'm on the floor plane, she's standing up and she's looking away and not, you know, not really there with me. I'm like, how does that make you feel? And he's like, I really, I really want to connect with her, but she's not present.
And I said, well, what would you want to be different? He said, I would like to be connected with her. I said, well, ask her. So he asked and he said, oh, my mum looked really surprised. She turned and looked at me, surprised that, you know, he's a five year old child. That's just asking. I want connection with you. And so she stopped and came down and connected. And he had that experiential sense of connection. It's not a cognitive thing, because the cognitive understanding is only just the surface layer.
And suddenly he felt that connection with his mum again that he didn't have before.
And that shifted because I can tune into him and feel what's happening in him.
The sense that I had, I explained afterwards was after that block went, there was this sense of longing, you know, and I knew he was longing for the connection with his mom at this point, but I didn't tell him.
So he experientially had that connection with his mum. And that feeling of longing that was sitting in this, in the sacral probably dropped about maybe 80%. There was still a little bit of it there, but it had mostly cleared. And he's like, well, does that mean, you know, has my reality shifted? Was that me talking to myself at five? And I actually changed that? And like, yeah, you, you shifted that timeline, right? That's changed. Yeah. Um, so, yeah, that was a pretty, that was a pretty powerful process.
[00:49:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Like retroactive, um, updates to life experience. That's brilliant. Yeah.
Um, yeah. A lot of people don't really understand that, but time isn't linear. It's just that. That's just the way we experience it. So when you do go and you step back in time like that and you do do an update, it changes everything because it's like a rolling a feature. It just changed that. It changes everything from that point.
[00:50:03] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:03] Speaker B: And that's why you get that relief. And it's a big change.
[00:50:08] Speaker A: It is, but it has to be experiential. You know, like cognitively, he kind of understood it already, but experiencing that, experiencing that connection in that space was just game changer.
[00:50:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, sometimes we don't even have experiences, but our version of it isn't the version that other people experienced. And so we sometimes carry around a bit of like a trauma where we thought, oh, no, we tried to treat that person so awfully and everything and not necessarily from their perspective. And sometimes that needs to be rewritten and looked back on. I mean, for myself, I had some times which was just bugging me, that kept on coming up in my head. It's like I treated that person so bad and just because of the way things were when we were younger and everything, and I went back to those people and I actually talked to them and said during. When this happened and walked them through it, and I said, this is my experience of it and I want to say sorry for it. And then they walked me through their version of it and they said, that's not what happened for me.
[00:51:11] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
[00:51:14] Speaker B: That was just whatever guilt trip you had with yourself at the time.
[00:51:16] Speaker A: So, yeah, the whole narrative that we tell ourselves about things can sometimes be completely wrong.
[00:51:22] Speaker B: It's so shocking, isn't it, how. How our experience of the world isn't exactly always true.
[00:51:28] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:51:29] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:51:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:51:31] Speaker B: Because that's the mind, isn't it?
[00:51:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:33] Speaker B: It's the mind. It gets in the way of things and tells us stories.
[00:51:36] Speaker A: It does. And, you know, when things happen, especially at that young sort of age where we're really very self centric then, and we don't understand what's happening for other people, but if we can go back either in therapy or with the help of a plant medicine, particularly in the psychedelic space, you can see all of the memories that you had and realize that the perspective or the narrative that you told yourself was actually wrong. It didn't play out like that. And it was just, you know, your, you know, if it was parental stuff, then your parents were dealing with their stuff and but you took it all on as if there was something wrong with you, but they were just stressed and dealing with other stuff. There was nothing to do with you. But we've told ourselves, oh, I'm unlovable. It was all my fault. Yeah, this. And later, we can actually experientially, again realize that that was a false narrative, and we can rewrite that narrative. And the power of that is just incredible.
[00:52:39] Speaker B: Exactly. That's, that's so on point. And people need to realize that life doesn't fall on just your own shoulders. It's everyone's.
[00:52:49] Speaker A: Yes, yes. But, you know, saying that we can't. Yes, we can look back and say, well, this is why I am the way I am. And sure, my parents or caregivers and the people around me, sure, they were dealing with their own stuff, and that influenced me. So while it's not your, you know, it's not my fault that those things happened to me. It's my responsibility now to change those and to do the work to heal that, you know. Yeah.
[00:53:17] Speaker B: It's not an excuse to be a jerk.
[00:53:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:23] Speaker B: Yeah. So, okay, so you've worked with a lot of plant medicines and their spirits.
Have you ever had to deal with any nefarious spirits that have been annoying and persistent?
[00:53:40] Speaker A: Not in my own journeys, but with working with clients. Yes.
And working with something like tobacco. I don't need to worry because tobacco will kind of deal with them.
It's more probably happened doing energy work and Reiki on people, actually.
And again, didn't really think about that as a real thing when I was early on the spiritual path until I encountered them.
[00:54:13] Speaker B: It's funny, isn't it? You don't believe it until it happens to you. And then you're like, I was so blind.
[00:54:22] Speaker A: So I have had a few times where there's, where I've pulled entities out of people.
Probably the biggest one was there was a lady who came for, just for Reiki and a whole, it was this big, shadowy kind of thing, basically the size of her body lifted out of her at one point, and I cleared it and sent it away.
And afterwards, I didn't want to say what happened, what I thought happened. I said, well, what did you experience? She said, oh, I felt like something left. This big weight came out of me, and I just suddenly felt so much better. And I told her what I saw, and she looked at me and she said, one of your eyes is bloodshot. I was like, really? She's like, yeah, completely bloodshot. And she was right.
So something happened and there was an energetic knock on effect to me and I did need to actually kind of have a bit of a nap after that to drain me.
[00:55:19] Speaker B: Yeah. Wow, that's huge.
[00:55:21] Speaker A: Yeah, these things happen. And, you know, there's been a few people who've come for clearing, you know, attachment clearings with tobacco and that's pulled it out of them. Um, super interesting. And, and, uh, yeah, always a little bit edgy working with some of the things that they described because I'm like, oh, I just, I'm going to drink some tobacco just to make sure, to be sure to me.
[00:55:45] Speaker B: Yeah, you don't want them hanging around your house either, too. So, yeah, they're up. Those, those beings are usually opportunists and they look for your weakness and, and hook on somehow. So, yeah, it's good that you keep your, yourself clear and your space clear, otherwise you can't do the work properly anyway. So, yeah, it sounds definitely like you're doing that. So that's, that's very cool. Do you have any recommended recommendations for people that, I mean, can actually help assist basically keeping their life clear themselves? I mean, anything that's simple and basic.
[00:56:16] Speaker A: Oh, look, I always come back to the basic practices. For me, meditation, especially initially when I was really struggling with depression, meditation, it just kept me sane.
So I make sure I meditate regularly, exercise, breath work, movement, all those fundamental practices, good diet, they go such a long way to having good mental health and physical health and those sorts of things then don't come in or don't affect you as much.
They're basic things, but you have to do the work. You have to put in the time for those practices.
The trick is the times when we need them the most. When we're really struggling, we have the least energy to go and do those things that will help us.
Like, if all you can do is get outside and sit in the sun, great. That, that will help a lot. Just the light of the sun will make you feel better, you know, get out into nature. But sometimes you just, I'm just going to lie here in bed and feel miserable about myself and the world. And, yeah, it's so when, when you really need those things, you just, you've just got to push a little bit, get a bit of momentum going and get yourself outside or get yourself to meditate. And once you get that ball rolling, you will find more energy to do those practices.
[00:57:41] Speaker B: How do people find you, Andrew, to avail themselves of your services?
[00:57:46] Speaker A: Yeah, my website is templerofthesoul.org on Instagram I'm Andrew Temple of the soul. Or on Facebook as Andrew Edmonds.
[00:57:56] Speaker B: Excellent. I'll provide all those links in the bottom of the show.
And what was I going to ask you? Something else. I was going to ask you there, it's gone. But yeah. Thank you very much for coming on to super normalized. It's been a pleasure talking to you and to gain a greater understanding of your work and your understanding of the world and how you experience it and your experiences with plant medicines and how they've changed you and others. That's. That's really cool. Andrew, I really appreciate all the time you've spent with me.
[00:58:25] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you, CJ, for having me on. It's been. It's been a pleasure.
[00:58:28] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. All right, I'll just say goodbye, the listeners, so I'll just get you to hold there.
That was a great show. I really enjoyed this talk with Andrew and can relate to his experiences as I've been through similar ones myself. And it was really interesting to hear about the protective elements of tobacco when it comes to working with it and its spirit. I didn't actually know anything about that before, and it's really cool to actually hear that and get a greater understanding of that. And it does prompt me to think that maybe that's something that I need to do myself. And I may be chasing up Andrew to have a session myself. If you've enjoyed today's show, please, yeah, like and subscribe. That's for the video people. I'm pointing down to do that on YouTube, but if you're listening, please share this show to one other person. Do you think who you think would actually gain great benefit from it? And if you enjoyed today's show so much that you'd love to reach out to Andrew, please refer to the show notes and you'll get links to Andrew's site. Contact him, say thank you for coming on the show. I'm sure he'd really appreciate it and avail yourself of his services.
We're at the end of the episode. Thank you very much for listening. And until next episode, it's bye for now.
