Mike Oppenheim Interview Consciously Overcoming Challenges

[00:00:00] Speaker A: I would just say two words, be kind. I would just say the solution to everything is be nice. No matter what happens to you, where you are, who's doing it. If you're nice, there's a million times better likelihood of things turning out okay for you. [00:01:00] Speaker B: Welcome to Supernormalize, the podcast, where we challenge the conventional break boundaries and normalize the seemingly supernatural. Join me, CJ, as we explore less uncharted realms of existence and unravel the mysteries of life. Experience. My treasured listeners, if you have a life story or healing modality or unique knowledge that you'd love to share, reach out to me at supernormalized. That's supernormalized with a Z at Proton me. Let's together embrace acceptance of the supernatural and unusual as what it really is. Completely normal. Today on Supernormalized, I welcome to the show Mike Oppenheim. And Mike has been interested in entertainment since he was a child, but became serious in 2003 when he began his music career as a band member playing guitar with Punch, Clock, and smirk. Now, in 2006, he started his weekly philosophy essay, the Casual Causes, and in 2011, he earned an MFA in Fiction from Mills College with his novel Dysfunction. He has since released the book Baby Doll. The book too Good to be true and the apology, and his fifth novel, Ardor, will be released on March 30, 2033. So that's already been released since this show. Now, Mike and I actually had a discussion on a service where he told me about an experience where he had his child abducted and how he came to terms with that through plant medicines. And so I welcome to today Mike to discuss that experience and more about his life. So please enjoy the show. Welcome to Supernormalized Mike Oppenheim. Thank you so much for coming on the show, Mike. [00:02:43] Speaker A: Yeah, thank you so much for coming on, letting me come on. And I had to cancel one time, so I'm really happy to do this makeup session. [00:02:50] Speaker B: It's totally okay. Life gets busy. I completely understand. It happens to all of us all of the time. We've got so many things going on, and that's just natural. So we met each other through a service that actually connects people for podcasting, and you mentioned that you had lots of stories that you'd like to share, and one of those is quite out there when it comes to your relationship with your ex partner and how that all played out with your son in an abduction. That's a heavy story. Do you want to start there? Or maybe first of all, actually, let's talk about Mike. Who is Mike. [00:03:31] Speaker A: Yeah, it's funny. Mike is a guy who's very comfortable talking about his personal life, and for two reasons. One, I just don't care. And two, I think it's helpful for other people to just see a person's psychology for how they deal with things. Because when my ex wife went to Thailand with my son and then didn't return, which is one way of describing it, I have a lot of different ways of talking about it, depending on the know. I encountered a shadow side of myself that I wasn't familiar with, which is like an angry, vengeful person who was very upset and wanted nothing more than justice. And as time goes on, it's been six years now. I never went there, first of all, I should make that clear. I did not take revenge or do anything bad, but it was more the thoughts and the disturbing patterns of thoughts. And that really sent me on a different course in life that I'll never be able to change. And it's a great trajectory, which is one of compassion and one of trying to help other people while still having an ego and still having career goals and things like, uh. So, Mike, to answer your question, is a fellow human who's really just interested in connecting with other humans? And, yeah, I love this mystery of excellent, excellent. [00:04:51] Speaker B: I think it's actually good to recognize that all of us do have capacities to do extreme things and those extreme things, and may be seen as harmful to others and things like that. I think that the main part is the fact that a real conscious being knows those things are in us, but also keeps them in check and can step away from that violence, even the violence to the self, violence to others, or violence to our own minds and our own bodies. So, yeah, all power to you for recognizing that. Now, you did mention that as a part of that story that was the most woo woo for you, was the fact that you took ayahuasca, and that's a plant medicine that a lot of my listeners know about it already. And if they don't, there's so much stuff on the Internet now that can teach them about it. But what was happening for you at that time, and why were you led to Ayahuasca? Where did you go to take it? Did you get down to, I mean, what was happening for you? [00:05:55] Speaker A: Yeah, so I was raised by transcendental meditating parents in Berkeley, California. So to say that the psychedelic mysteries of the universe were taboo in my house would be a misstatement. It was not that I was allowed to do drugs or anything like that. So much as my parents said, look, when you're 18 and you're old enough, if you want to experiment with things, try grass, as they call pot and things like that. They were very like, don't be an idiot, don't be reckless, be safe. But also, we're not closed minded and negative about these things. So it was very interesting. So I first heard of DMT when I was like in my early 20s. I'm 42 now for context. So about 20 years ago, and I tried it pretty quickly after that, and I didn't actually love it or really care that much for the experience. But about five years after that, I started hearing constantly about this ayahuasca thing in South America, like you said. And I don't really remember who first hipped me to it, but I know that within 5 seconds of hearing about it, I was like, okay, that's going to be on my list of things to try. Because first of all, anything that's thousands of years old, I don't fear it. Secondly, like you said, there's a million articles on the Internet, so I'm not going to belabor the point, but unless you have certain health issues, there's really no risk you're not going to overdose on it. It's not reckless or dangerous. What is dangerous is if you don't have like a babysitter, they say. So I was intrigued, but I've just put it on the back burner for many years because I met someone, we got married and I had a kid, and I'm not the kind of person who's going to do drugs when I'm my kids in my house. So after the divorce, my ex wife asked to go to Thailand for two weeks with my son, and I very reluctantly said yes. It's a much longer story. And so I booked a trip to Ecuador to legally do ayahuasca, which is why I can talk as freely about it as I want to. And I strongly recommend that, because I think if you're a paranoid person, it's not smart to take an illegal drug in America in your one bedroom apartment in Brooklyn or wherever you're. I would strongly recommend. Yeah, because there are tons of illegal havens to do it in every country. And I'm not saying you can't do that. I'm just saying that I think for know, I think it was Alan Watts and Timothy Leary would always talk about set and setting. If you're going to do psychedelics, it's very important. So I was very happy to go to Ecuador and go to a retreat where people, they were serving healthy food. It was like, there's an ayahuasca diet that they recommend. And so I went there, and while I took it three times in five days, and I found, for whatever reason, I am a lightweight with most substances. I am not a lightweight. With ayahuasca, I was able to take three times as much as most people. I never, ever vomited. I didn't have any of those, but I had the full experience. It's not that I didn't get the results. It's that I followed the diet to a T, and I was very reverent of the instructions, because I value indigenous knowledge, for lack of a better term. I value this idea that just because Western science has all its knowledge and stuff, we should put this other stuff on the back burner. So I did it three times in five days. And the final time I did it was one of the most life changing experiences of my life. So, just for context for everyone listening, because I've been telling the story out of order. June 6, 2017, I officially finalized my divorce with my, at the time, wife. October 17, she flew to Thailand with my son. And October 21 through the 27th, I did ayahuasca three times in five days. So, on October 27, four days before my son was supposed to return to America, where I would pick him up from the airport and his mother, and then I would have him for Halloween, I took Ayahuasca, and the only way for me to explain is I got a message. That's how I tell people with absolute certainty. Something in me told me it wasn't a voice. I didn't hear God. I didn't see anything. It was just a confident, intuitive knowledge is the best way I can explain it. And it said, long ago, your son. And you agreed to a contract, and the contract is that he wants to have the experience of growing up without a dad. You agreed to this, and you were hand picked, and you're the perfect candidate for it. So just be nice and be kind about it. But just so you know, there's nothing you can do to undo this. Nothing you do will prevent this from happening or make it not happen, nor can you hasten the process. So I came home on October 29, and I had dinner with my dad, and I said, hey, dad, I took Ayahuasca in Ecuador, and I had this amazing experience. He's like, great, tell me all about it. And then I told him that message, and I said, so I think I'm going to call. I'm not going to use her name, my son's mother, and tell her that I'm going to voluntarily let him grow up in Thailand, which was like a big issue in the divorce, is I was like, no, he's going to grow up in America. And I said, as long as she gives me vacations with him in winter and summer, I'm going to do it. And I explained why, and he said, that's not a bad idea for a lot of reasons. And even without the Ayahuasca experience, I can see why that kind side of you would want to do that. But since school doesn't start till they're five and your son's only two, why don't you wait three years and then do it? And I said, yeah, that's not a bad idea. WEll, I didn't have an opportunity to offer it or even entertain that, because two days later, I got an email with a very flimsy excuse, and next thing I know, I'm on the phone with the State Department in the United States and filing an abduction claim with the international court system. It was crazy. It was just like this whirlwind thing. So I fought it. I didn't keep my end of the deal, and I tried to legally get my son back. And then this is the funny part, so I could give him back to her legally. Like, I wanted it just to be fair. Yeah. And so I didn't get that opportunity. But the reason I go into such detail about it with you on this podcast is that it changed me, because I saw whether the message is BS or not, I saw what happened when I went against it, and my intuition was telling me, don't go against it. So since that day, it's taken a lot of work. But after about two years from the abduction, I was pretty centered and able to move on and be healthy. And now it's been six years, and I would say I'm not over it in a pat way, but I'm over it. [00:12:20] Speaker B: No, I completely understand. It would have been very challenging at the time. I mean, did you go through a grieving process of disconnecting? Yeah. [00:12:28] Speaker A: I mean, I still miss him so much. This is the part that's hard. It's hard not to talk about it. But he was my son. I was with him every day until he was two. I wanted him. I was begging my, at the time, wife to have a kid. Like, I'm the kind of dad. There's a lot of us out there. I'm not saying I'm special, but I really wanted a kid, and I really wanted to be a hands on parent. I've always wanted children since I was a kid. So I'm remarried to the love of my life, and I have a daughter who's two, and I have another daughter coming in February. And my son, he knows me and he knows who I am. And he used to call pretty often on Skype with his mom and his grandfather's help, and then now he's eight, so it's, like, in a weird, wobly territory. But he did call me on his birthday this year, which was very touching. So I do know my son. He definitely calls me dad and knows who I am. We do not have a strong or good relationship from my perspective, but it's not like he's dead to me. So I grieve something I'll never get back. I grieve, like, missed time. I don't know if you have children. [00:13:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I do. [00:13:32] Speaker A: So, you know that cuddly phase, the best phase, as a lot of parents would say, and I didn't get it with him. I got, like, zero to two. He was just starting to talk and be really active, and then boom. [00:13:43] Speaker B: Yeah, that'd be hard. The story of you actually chasing it up through the State Department and attempting to make that sort of change in the way that you wanted to make it. I think in future time, he'll come across all of that information and realize that he is wanted by you and is connected to you in that way. And it's important. I mean, I actually was adopted at 28 days myself. [00:14:14] Speaker A: Oh, wow. [00:14:15] Speaker B: And I felt a disconnection with my parents because they weren't my parents, they weren't my blood parents, and you know that on some sort of level. And later on in life, I sought out my original birth documents and all of that around that, and I did find, actually, that my mother had gone back to the state and said, I want him back after a period of. I think it was just over a month after I was born, and at that stage, the documents assigned and the state just said no. But that actually made me go, wow. So my mother did want me back, and that was important to know. [00:14:48] Speaker A: Goosebumps. That's so powerful. Thank you for sharing that with me. [00:14:54] Speaker B: Well, it's important to know that each little piece of information adds up to a whole experience of life. And I'm certain that what you did will play out in a beautiful way in the future. Yeah. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Thank you. [00:15:07] Speaker B: Yeah. So I've got to ask you, though, what drew you to Ayahuasca at the time. Did you actually just think, this is going to be a solution? Why did you go there? [00:15:19] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. I think for me, the stated intention was to figure out what had gone wrong. How had I, again, my version of a story. I'm sure my ex has her version. At the time of the divorce, I was like, 80% her fault, 20% mine. I was like, very like this person. I think we called me names and berated me for years and made my life horrible and complained and blah, blah, blah. Then, as I get further from it, but at the time, in 2017, fresh out of the divorce, I think I just wanted clarity for my future. What is going on? I'm not where I want to be with my career. I have a failed marriage. I'm a divorcee with a custody situation with a son. No one as a kid thinks I'm going to be a divorced person with a. You know what I mean? It's, like, not a romantic or nice thing. So I think the stated intention of Ayahuasca for me was I just wanted the universe to help me stay afloat. [00:16:17] Speaker B: So is your way of actually putting a telescope to the stars and getting some guidance in a different sort of way? [00:16:24] Speaker A: Yeah, absolutely. That's a great phrasing. Excellent. [00:16:27] Speaker B: And you found your way through that. That's really good to hear. So you actually do other work as well besides explore Ayah Washca, which is something you did in the past there. Can you tell me about your understanding of the intersection of humor and philosophy? Because you are a top selling humor and philosophy writer on Substac. How did that come about? I mean, what spurned you to become such a writer? [00:16:55] Speaker A: Yeah, it's interesting. As a child, I was really interested in music, but what I was really interested in was writing music. And so my life was dedicated to music until I was 20 something, and I also made films. But I realized after performing and doing all these things that my favorite thing is to create. I like to be behind the scenes. And so it naturally led to writing, which is like the foundation of, you go to the movies, and no one ever knows who wrote their favorite movie. And that's how I figured my future would be, is I'd be this not famous person with a really healthy ego, because I had written things that people consume in culture. So I'm still in that driver's seat. But the nonfiction thing took me by surprise. I just one day started reading when I was in college. So I went to college when the Internet was just starting to pop, 1999. And so we had an official email address at the university and like a landline in the room to our big tower computers. It was like that era. And so this guy at an Ivy League school was sending out emails on what's called, like a distribution list. And I'm sure you know what this is, but I'm saying it for younger people listening. And so this is like, think like a blog, but, like, earlier stage than that. And I was really enamored by his style, which was to be very funny, and talk about his personal feelings of dating and going through college. And so after I graduated and after I quit playing music, I had this weird epiphany, and I wanted to write my own version of that. So I just did one as a one off as an email, and everyone who read it didn't say it sucked. I can't say that. It was like everyone's like, wow, you're great. Do more. It was more that no one said that was stupid, and that was enough for me. I was like, I'm going to do more. And then the list kept growing and people would ask to be on it, and then it turned into like an essay every week. And the humor thing is just always my take. I'm not a funny person. I'm not a stand up comedian, but I see humor in everything. Like my own child's abduction. I can make joke. I've really weirded people out by making abduction jokes. It doesn't matter to me because who cares? And ultimately, I think when you die, you're not important. You're important to the people you touch and all that. But we take ourselves too seriously, and it helps me not become too serious to be kind of funny. So humor and philosophy, to me, really intersect. And I think Plato, Aristotle, Socrates, all my favorite thinkers from that era, they had a sense of humor. It's not uncommon, in my opinion. [00:19:29] Speaker B: I think that humor is a good way to actually teach without teaching, sort of thing. It's a pathway into people's understanding of different angles on experiences of life. So, yeah, I get where you're getting at with that. Now, you also run a podcast yourself, which is called Coffin Talk, and you've got that about the meaning of death. What drew you to actually doing that? I mean, you must have had some experiences to want to start talking to people about that. [00:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm going to tell, like, a mid length version of the story because I don't want to over talk. When I was a little child, my mom had a friend who was dying of cancer, and I, for some reason, wanted to tag along and be around her. And my mom would tell her friends and me that I was really good at consoling people as they were dying. And then it happened again. A different friend's mom got cancer, and I did the same thing. And then there was a third incident when I was in my teens. And so by the time I was, like, 20, I just had, in the back of my mind this thing of like, oh, you're good at counseling people on their way out of earth. And so after my son's abduction, I love volunteering. And I had all this free time. I didn't have a half week custody of my kid. I had nothing. I still had to pay child support, ironically, even though it doesn't go to her because she doesn't collect it. But that's a whole nother story. So I was like, what am I going to do with all this free time? So I decided to volunteer at Alphaspus Ward, and I did it for three straight years, and I did it a lot. I did, like, three to five sessions a week, and I didn't get addicted to it, but I was good at it. Not in a patting myself on the back way. I just was good at it. I was good at comforting people. But the one thing I noticed was some people are inconsolable when they're dying and they're not comfortable. And the reason they're not is because they never really thought about dying. They just pushed that subject away. They just never dealt with it. And so I started to notice that this is, in my country, America, like, a total trend that people. That no one on TV dies. You never have episodes of a sitcom where they go to a funeral. There's never death. And, like, oh, we have a weird law. Weird. That's a nice euphemism. We have a bad law, which is you can't show bodies of soldiers who died. We are this country that goes to war constantly, but never shows you the horrible, nasty side of war. We'll show missiles. We'll show action shots. Like, right now, you can turn on CNN and see everything going on in Israel and Palestine and everything, but you won't see bodies of the dead. You won't see even, like, coffins. So my wife and I during COVID just decided, like, we're bored. We have time. Let's do a podcast. And she know, you should just interview people about dying. That's a thing you have a somewhat unique niche in. And so I started it, and it's so weird. I love it to an extent that I'm uncomfortable with almost because it's just fun, you know, this. I'm sure interviewing people is really fun. It is. And it's the least egotistical thing I've ever done that appears to be egotistical. I don't know if you can relate to this, but you're actually bringing out the best in other people and you're shining a light on them. And I was a teacher, and it reminds me so much of teaching. So I love it. It gives me this thing I've missed so much after I retired from teaching, the Coffin Talk podcast. And by the way, you're 100% a candidate to come on if you're willing. So I love that for sure. [00:22:59] Speaker B: That'd be cool. [00:23:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Okay. We'll talk off. [00:23:02] Speaker B: We'll work it out. [00:23:06] Speaker A: And I always say that if I like someone on an interview because I don't want to ask you questions about death now I'm going to purposely hold them. Your audience hopefully will listen to you when you're on it because it'll be a different side of you. I never plan the questions, except one question. One question is static every single episode, which is what do you think happens when you die? And it's not what do you think happens to Bill or James or someone else? It's what do you think happens to you when you die? And then we kind of sometimes ask it towards the end. Sometimes it's like the second question I ask, it just depends on the flow of the intervIew. And then I try to trace the person's morality with that in mind. So, example, if I'm interviewing like, a staunch Catholic who believes in hell, I'll be like, so you really believe you're going to hell? And they're like, oh, yeah. They don't think they're going to, but you believe that there is a place called hell that you could go to in a place called heaven. And then we kind of, like, dissect it. And it's interesting. It's interesting to see how people from all over the world, I've had guests from different know. It's not just. [00:24:09] Speaker B: Yeah, excellent. Okay, so, Mike, what happens when you die? [00:24:16] Speaker A: I think I've been influenced, to be honest, like, other people have been way less into reincarnation than I used to be. I've heard so many people talk about reincarnation that I've started to see the limitless holes in that logic. But I don't see a hole in the logic of reincarnation is real. It's just not so like that's where the misconception. If I was Cleopatra, the most famous cliche example of past life talk, it wouldn't matter. I wasn't Cleopatra. It would just be that a spoke on a wheel is who you are. You're the spoke. And these other incarnations can come not out of you the same way the spoke connects the wheel. You don't know if you're the spoke or the wheel. But what is the word for that? The rods? I don't know. [00:25:06] Speaker B: The threads? [00:25:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Whatever that is. Those are the lives. And so I do believe that when you die, there is a conscious experience beyond what we have here. So I do believe that there's a transition of consciousness. I don't believe there's a permanent mic who's going to sit somewhere and observe and talk and communicate. But I do believe, since, as Einstein said, time is relative, I do believe it's relative, that right now, I'm here on Earth in a fake year called 2023, on a fake day, talking to you. But really, we're in a timeless, floating space, and that's just a variable. And so I see an unexplainable, unwordable experience, but I intuit it. It's somewhere like when you're doing drugs and you get a little disassociated. The first time I smoked marijuana, I remember kind of like a little bit, like floating outside of my body a little bit. And so I think that's what happens. I think you tether and those near death experience books that you can read. And when I interview people, that's really telling, because there's really not a second version of that. All near death experiences are so similar. They're all so similar. And it would be strange for that many people to be making it up and lying and being that coordinated. [00:26:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I've read some NDE books and looked at a lot of NDE videos on YouTube, and, yeah, I know you're right there, that a lot of the experiences are so similar that it's obvious that there is something else going on. And I won't go into my beliefs because I'll hold that for the. [00:26:53] Speaker A: Oh, and can I throw something else in that I forgot about until just. [00:26:56] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. [00:26:57] Speaker A: So, Ayahuasca is a plant medicine, and it's made by adding a really weird vine from a jungle, primarily in South America, to something else. And you mix them. And then what it does, though, is it creates DMT, but for a prolonged state. So if you smoke DMT, which is, like, the traditional thing, it lasts, like, 1020 minutes max. And then you can't smoke it again quickly. There's no re upping like cocaine or other. That's why there's no potential for addiction with it. Although I know people who have done it way too much and got addicted to the experience, so I'm just going to throw that out there. But the most interesting thing from all this to me is DMT is a naturally occurring thing in your own brain. And they've proven that it is released at birth and at death. And so if nothing else, that would explain why people have the same experience. If nothing else, they're all getting a DMT rush, but then they're coming back. [00:27:50] Speaker B: Look, the DMT actually is also produced in the spinal column and also in the lungs if you do breath work. So you can actually access these states as well through specific breath work techniques. And Pranayama seems to be one of the ways to get in there. And Wim Hof's techniques seem to actually push that through into our systems as well. So there are ways to access it without taking things. It's released from the pineal gland, and if you clean that up, you clean up your pineal gland, you can actually have even bigger experiences with it without having to ingest something. So yeah, there's definitely ways and means to experience that and enjoy that. Yeah. Cool. Okay, so you actually also have two master's degrees. Degrees are THose, what did you do? [00:28:42] Speaker A: I have a master of fine arts in creative writing and education. So it's a unique in America and the world, I guess it's a terminal degree, which means I'm allowed to teach at a university without going to a PhD program for seven years. So that's my first master's degree. And then I also after that very quickly got an ESL master's degree teaching English as a second language. And so I was a creative writing and an English teacher, and I had like three teaching jobs at once. My first year out of school, and then one of the companies I worked for, a private school for ESL, begged me to be full time, and I ended up working for them for nine years. And it was just one of the best experiences of my life. I got to travel without traveling. We had international students come to our school. They would come for A week to six weeks and then leave. I met thousands of people from almost every country except Africa. We only have like three students from Africa ever come. That's just like, not their culture doesn't really send people to America to learn language. They have people, but it's not right. [00:29:46] Speaker B: Right now, as a part of your career too, you actually were in some rock bands as well and explored that sort of life path. What rock bands? And where did you go? What happened? [00:29:58] Speaker A: Yeah, so when I was a kid, I was like obsessed with singing and music. And then I was ten. The first time I heard the song smells like Teen Spirit, it broke like when I was ten years old. And I was just hooked. I was like, mom, I want a guitar. And she's like, no, you quit things. And I'm like, mom, I want a guitar. I was like Bart Simpson, like just begging. And so my parents brokered a cool deal with me. They said, all right, we'll rent a guitar and if you practice every day for three months, we'll buy you one for your birthday. So like three months before my birthday, it even surprised me. I was a quitter. I quit things. Like, I quit sports, I quit everything I did when I was a kid. I got this guitar. I remember my fingers bleeding the first night. I played jingle Bells in the garage for like 4 hours and I never could put it down. I played guitar hours a day, every day until I was like mid twenty s. So I wanted to be in a band from the time I was eleven on. I had failed attempts in high school. And then in the end of college, I convinced two friends from the West coast who were graduating to join me and start a band on the East coast because that's where I was studying. And then one of the guys girlfriend lived further than me east, almost by New York City. And she convinced him to convince me to move the whole band to where she was. And then she would play bass. So I met her and she was fantastic at bass. So we started this band and it was called Punch Clock. And we lasted two and a half, three years. But it's interesting. We made it to a level faster than most bands get. But then we were so bickering and fighting that we broke up. And then I moved to Oregon and a friend of mine started a cover band of Surf rock and he just asked me if I would play lead guitar in it. And it was so fun. So I was in a surf rock band for a couple years and then I quit. I retired. I still play music. But yeah, that was it. [00:31:46] Speaker B: Yeah, right. So, yeah, you still play music for yourself now? And do you compose your own songs still? [00:31:53] Speaker A: Actually, it's funny. No. And yes, I make silly songs for my daughter. So I do compose songs technically, but they're like very derivative, like three chord rock songs with just funny lyrics and stuff. I'm not really trying. It's weird. I was thinking about this a lot the other day. Even if I were to pursue music again, the market doesn't like what I do anymore. I'd never hear rock songs anymore. I don't hear that kind know my band. The real sound I was doing. It was a weird combination, but we sounded kind of like pavement and Weezer and a couple of other bands from the late ninety S. And so Weezer is still massively successful. So it's not like there isn't a market for it. But I am no River Cuomo. [00:32:38] Speaker B: To add some perspective to that, though, I mean, that's a great skill. Be able to entertain your daughter with music and write songs for her. If you look at the most successful Australian band of I think it's of all time, actually. It was actually a band called the Cockroaches that turned into the Wiggles. [00:32:56] Speaker A: Oh my gosh. That's fascinating, isn't it? [00:32:59] Speaker B: Yeah. They started out as a regular rock band called the Cockroaches and they toured up and down the coast. But they saw the glass ceiling that actually was in rock band touring. And then they just sidestepped and pivoted, turned into the Wiggles and became one of the most successful rock bands in Australian history worldwide. [00:33:16] Speaker A: That's crazy. I thought you were going to talk about in excess, though. That's funny. [00:33:21] Speaker B: No, they're bigger than in excess. They probably made more money. [00:33:27] Speaker A: That's a good trivia question. I don't think anyone would get that. [00:33:31] Speaker B: Well, I'm from Australia, so I know that. [00:33:33] Speaker A: Yeah, that's cool. [00:33:36] Speaker B: So. Okay, so you are writing still a lot. And you've actually just produced your first book here, I think. Is it your first? [00:33:46] Speaker A: No, I've written seven novels and my fifth novel was picked up by a publishing house recently. No, that's okay. I don't care at all. [00:33:54] Speaker B: So you've just got your new book out, which is ardor. Can you tell us? [00:34:00] Speaker A: Yeah, actually it's dedicated to my son. And it's about a kid who's the world's most famous psychic to be. He's not famous yet, and he doesn't want to be. So he's trying to not fulfill his destiny. And it's about his immature reaction to what he's supposed to do. His Dharma, if you wIll. And it's definitely loosely based on a fictitious version of the abduction of my son and all that. And it has a very interesting plot. It's funny, it's serious. And it ends. Unlike most of my novels, it has, in my opinion, a very philosophical ending, which I like. And so I'm not surprised that it was picked up by a publishing house after trying with other projects, because I just got better over the years. When I got my MFA, I was good, and then I got better. And so I love my third novel, actually the most, and I reedited it because now I'm much better at writing. But my fifth one, Arter, is currently out, and I definitely try to market it as best I can. I'm not really good at talking up my stuff, but I can tell you that all my projects are fun and easy to read. I never write hard to read. Things like even my essays, like last week was vaginas can't aim. And it's about how my toddler is learning to pee. And I kept telling her to aim. And my wife came in and was like, you moron, women can't aim. And I'm like, what do you mean? You can't know. That's the kind of stuff. [00:35:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, if you were actually to write your own Amazon review of your own book and you were somebody else, what would you say? [00:35:39] Speaker A: It's a great question. You're a great interviewer. I've never thought about that. I would say Mike takes a humorous and not heavy handed approach to an obscure subject like psychics, and makes it relatable and fun. And I was surprised by the emotional engagement with the characters, especially towards the end of the novel. [00:36:00] Speaker B: Wow, that's a perfect summary. Excellent. That makes people, makes it really easy for people to engage with it straight away. Yeah, that was cool. [00:36:08] Speaker A: Send that back to me. [00:36:12] Speaker B: Well, look, when I actually do the recording and I finish it, it actually does do a transcription, so I can. Thank you, and then you can go and copy that bit out. [00:36:20] Speaker A: Awesome. Thank you. [00:36:23] Speaker B: Okay, so what was it like for you living in a foreign country? I guess that was Thailand you were living for a while? [00:36:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:30] Speaker B: Where were you living in? [00:36:33] Speaker A: So at the time, I was married. My wife at the time's parents had a very nice house in Bangkok, and then they also had a second house in Hua Hin, which is where the king lives. And it's down on the, uh. So we would live in their home base in Bangkok, but then we'd travel off into Huain, and we'd also go to a couple other places. And the only thing that made it unique that I think is interesting for other people because everyone goes to Thailand. I mean, it's so popular. But I got to see Thailand with family from Thailand, and they speak Thai fluently. And everywhere we went, people would not treat me like a guyjin, a stranger. They have a different word for it, but I'm drawing a blank on it. It's their word for papaya. I can't remember now. Anyway, it means white fruit. That's what they call white people anyway. So it was really interesting because I got to see a different side of Thailand and experience it. And then also the family I was staying with would translate things for me. But I also got to see the Thai population is 17% of Chinese ethnic descent, and then 83% original Siam culture, for lack of a better word. And so the family I was with is of the Chinese descent, and they're the wealthy class in Thailand. So they're like, in the US, we have this fake number. We say the 1%, but they're like the 1%, basically. And so it was interesting because I come from a place in America where I met a lot of the 1%. Like, I'm from the Bay Area of California, and I'm not exactly a fan of wealthy culture. And so it was weird to be with a family that was obsessed with announcing their wealth and being wealthy. Everywhere they went, they'd be like, the finest bottle of wine, and they were flaunting it, because in their minds, in that culture, that's appropriate. And I can't speak to whether it is or isn't, but it was very strange to. Yeah. So, as far as the experience, though, it helped me see America in a way I'll never be able to unsee, which is very helpful for me. It's very therapeutic. I was very anti America when 911 happened. I was a student. I felt guilty for years about our policies, and especially the CIA. And so when that attack happened, unlike most of my peers, I didn't think we got attacked. I thought, man, that would be like if you taunted a kid at school for 15 years and they punched you in the face, what did you expect? So I wasn't sympathetic to the people who did it. I never would be. Violence is absolutely inexcusable. But I felt really guilty, and so it helped me to live in Thailand, to not feel guilty, because I saw that every culture thinks they're awesome, and every culture, we beat the drum louder than any other, and we're so obnoxious. I mean, don't get me started, but the average Australian is proud to be Australian. The average Jamaican is proud to be from Jamaica. So there's nothing wrong with liking America. It helps me reset something important. I'm way less. [00:39:38] Speaker B: Excellent. Excellent. Now, I think that flamboyance that comes with being wealthy in Thai culture is related also to a magical act, which is when you're showing off your abilities of magic and wealth, the magic of being wealthy, then it actually encourages it and also enhances it as well. So that actually leads me to a question. Did you actually experience the magic and sorcery spiritual side of Thailand while you were there? [00:40:10] Speaker A: No, not at mean to say I butted heads with my ex in laws would be like, we never fought openly, but every time I suggested an activity or something that was off the beaten path, they would make fun of it and just say, that's for poor idiots. That's not what we. I can't. I speak Thai. I learned it after my son's abduction. I was obsessed with learning it because I want to be able to speak to him. He speaks English, so it doesn't, uh. So I can't wait to go back to Thailand someday and actually do. [00:40:46] Speaker B: Right, right. So actually, it was a bit of a challenge to live there at that time with her parents because of that exclusionary sort of tactic on their. [00:40:57] Speaker A: Well, they were. I don't think this is a stretch to say they're the kinds of people who abduct a son of mine. So they're also the kinds of people who just like, that was like, their attitude while I was there. It was just like, we call the shots. You're married to our daughter. That was part of why I felt uncomfortable as the marriage progressed, because was like, oh, you treat your daughter like an infant, and by association you want to treat me like that. And they wanted to buy us a house. They wanted us to live down the street from them. He wanted me to get a job at a school he was going to buy. He wanted me to be, like, the vice principal of it. He wanted me to earn a lot of money. He was very generous and kind in a certain way, but he was also so controlling, controlling. And my dad's, like, the most hands off, awesome. Do whatever you want. Be a rock star if you want, dad. So it was very hard for me psychologically. [00:41:42] Speaker B: Yeah, right. Did that actually create friction because you felt like you were obliged? [00:41:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And it was weird because the first couple of years of the marriage, my wife at the time was constantly saying, my parents are right. You need blah, blah, blah. And then we spent enough time with them that she, on the very last trip we ever took there, she said, I don't want to live with them, I don't want to move to Thailand anymore. I changed my mind, blah, blah, blah. But then we just kept fighting and arguing about other stupid stuff. So intercultural relationships are so hard. I was warned by three close friends. They didn't say, don't marry her, but they said, you need to really realize that volatile issues will come up that you never saw coming. And they're exactly right. And especially when you go outside of. It's one thing to have a Spanish person marry a German, or even an American and a Spanish, but when you step outside of that Western culture into Eastern culture, it's even more precipitous. And actually, I think Australia is the best Western country by far at understanding this. Because of where you're located. [00:42:49] Speaker B: Yeah, we are a bit of a. [00:42:51] Speaker A: I mean, you guys are the best travelers ever. Everyone loves you. I've traveled a lot, and I was tempted after 911, I wanted to put, like, a Canadian or Australian sticker, just bane your accent. So I was getting. [00:43:05] Speaker B: Excellent. Okay, so have you found, over time, that the connection point between you and your ex is your son? But have you found other points of connection so you can actually rebuild a friendship outside of that as well? [00:43:20] Speaker A: No. She won't even respond. When she first took him, she would respond to all my emails and stuff, and she would especially send my mom photos and stuff, and she was very amicable. And then at some point, very abruptly, she just stopped responding to anything. She won't talk to me. She's in the background on the calls. But the last time I said something to talk to her, she hung up. I've been trained, I've been sociopathically trained to play by the rules, which is stay in my lane, don't ask questions that could in any way insinuate that something went wrong. I would never do that. But the risk of her hanging up or them not ever calling me again is so prominent in my mind that I just say, like, I love you, son, Abby. So, no, we have no relationship. I've written her numerous apologies. Some of them were fake, and then they eventually became real. I've tried so hard to relate things. Also, I've learned a lot of lessons about grieving and about vengeance and about holding grudges. And I heard this yesterday. So I'm going to repeat it as if it's my own thought, but it's not. But I heard it, and it really clicked. For someone to do something really awful to someone else, the only way to keep doing it is to somehow turn it into it was their fault. And you're the victim. And I truly think that's what, at the end of the day, is going on in her mind, is that I called the State Department, and I was very angry, and I was trying to take my son from her. I think the narrative starts with my response to the abduction, because what happened when they took him is they lied and said that her back hurt and he was going to come Later. And then I got an email from her father through her to my parents. It wasn't even to me, which is, again, another tie thing. So to me, it was very insulting. But I can see it differently now, six years later. And it just said, our daughter can't live in America alone. You know, this. We know, like, this is just a bad situation. It's unfortunate for everyone. So we're just going to make it easy. We'll take care of Tyler. My son. I don't mind saying his name over here, and you don't have to do anything. And I was just like, no, what are you talking about? [00:45:30] Speaker B: Yeah, that would have been tough at. [00:45:31] Speaker A: The time, but I would love to have a friendship or even just approachable relationship with her. I think it's unhealthy for a child to see that what she's done, this would be my only real criticism, is, like, I just don't see an end game for healthy psychological child development when things are this tilted. [00:45:53] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I think in time that as his mind forms and understanding forms of the world, he'll be able to see things, because I do know from my experience with my own daughter, they actually see everything as well. And as they get maturity, it sorts out in their heads, and eventually he'll come to you with understanding. So I wouldn't be afraid of that. And I'm sure that it will happen. And maybe in time, you can have a friendship with your ex as well, which is amicable at least. So, yeah, I wish that for you. What I was going to ask you then, Mike, considering all of your experiences and everything you've been through, is there any life advice that you'd like to lay out to the listeners that maybe are any questions that I didn't ask that I could have asked, that you'd like to have asked? [00:46:46] Speaker A: I would just say two words, be kind. I would just say the solution to everything is be nice. No matter what happens to you, where you are, who's doing it. If you're nice, there's a million times better likelihood of things turning out okay for you. I'm not saying that if someone is holding a gun to you, you should be nice to them, but it certainly wouldn't help you to be mean to them. [00:47:07] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:47:09] Speaker A: Yeah. So I would just say, in any situation I'm in now, I just try to think, how can I be nice about this? Earlier, I was trying to meditate in the house, and I heard my wife singing a song loudly to my daughter. And my first thought was, why won't they shut up? And my second thought was, gosh, I have the best wife ever. She loves my daughter and she's singing to her. There's always a kind view of things. And so that worked. And it didn't work because it's a trick. It worked because that's actually the truth. The lie is, I deserve peace and meditation time. Who cares? [00:47:41] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. [00:47:44] Speaker A: That would be my only advice from all this. Yeah. And that's why I'm going to be kind to my ex in laws for the rest of their lives. And I hope it pays off. But even if it doesn't, I don't have anger anymore. And that's the best lesson for me, is just anger is your only enemy. [00:48:00] Speaker B: Look, I was robbed at gunpoint in the Philippines, and they actually had a 45 pointing at my face and was during a money exchange situation that went the wrong way. And I was just trying to change money to get a good rate. And they pushed me into an alleyway and did the exchange in front of me. And I'm thinking, this is not good. I'm surrounded by gangsters. [00:48:20] Speaker A: It. [00:48:20] Speaker B: And they were counting out the money and I could see it was fake, they were faking it. And I looked at them and they said, is that right? And I looked at them and said, no, this is not right. And they put the gun to my face and said, yeah, this is right. And I thought at that moment, this is a time to be extremely agreeable. So I said, yeah, great, that's fine, thank you. And I just backed out and walked away. But, yeah, like you said, your example of a gun to the face be nice. Yeah, that's a really good idea. [00:48:50] Speaker A: Can I ask you a couple of follow up questions? I'm obsessed with these kind of events. Yeah, sure. I imagine this has not happened to me, but I imagine I would be so angry at the unfair coercion and belittlement of someone using a weapon to have that much power over you. Did you react like that at some. [00:49:09] Speaker B: Point after I was upset? I felt like my life was threatened at that moment, in that time. But I did step back from the situation with an understanding that I did the best thing I possibly could, obviously, because I was alive still and at that moment, because I actually did catch a cab into the area where the money changes were, and the cab was still waiting for me. So I went and jumped back in the cab. And he said to me, because he said, you look upset. What happened? And I said, I was just robbed by some people at gunpoint. And he was like, what? And he reached under his seat and pulled out a son off shotgun and went running down the alley looking for him. And I was like, what is going on? This place is mental. I was actually feeling, like, justified in some way there, even though for me it was a great loss at the time. It was also like, okay, people are coming to my defense as well. And that was cool. [00:50:07] Speaker A: Yeah, that's beautiful. [00:50:09] Speaker B: But he came back. He said, look, I can't find anyone. And I said, yeah, I didn't expect you to, but thank you for that. And he said, look, you need to report this, and told me where to report it and everything. And I was only 19 at the time, so it was quite shocking. But, yeah, it was a big change point in my life, for sure. Don't trust random money changes on the street with great rates when you're in the Philippines. [00:50:39] Speaker A: Yeah, I have some angel on my shoulder, because I should have had a couple really bad experiences traveling, and I've just been very lucky. Actually, my scariest one was in New Orleans, Louisiana, where I was drunk with a friend and I really wanted to get high on just so drunk at the end of the night. And so I agreed to go back to this person's apartment to smoke weed with them. And I still, to this day, don't know how it didn't turn into, like, a double homicide, but, oh, good. We actually ended. [00:51:05] Speaker B: Do you mind talking about what happened? [00:51:07] Speaker A: Well, it's weird. Nothing happened, but it was like everything looked like it was going to go really dark and bad. There was, like, a weird guy asleep in a different bedroom, and then they asked us to go in the bathroom, and then for some reason, we had to stay in a different room, and I heard the door lock. It was just, like, everything. And I was drunk, so I thought everything was hilarious. And then at some weird point, I was just like, this isn't okay. This isn't going well. And my friend is even more drunk than me. And so I don't remember what we did, but I bs my way out of it. I just said, like, oh, my friend's downstairs. He's calling me I have to go down, but I'll come right back up or something. And I dragged him, and then we just called a Lyft or an Uber or something, but I just remember the next day, I never drink that much. New Orleans is a city where you just drink recklessly. And so I just let go in a way I never would. [00:52:01] Speaker B: Yeah, it could be the spirits of the mean, you know, spirits like. Yeah. And they like you being open to it, too. So, yeah, I think the drinking thing could be encouraged without you knowing it. So I understand. Yeah. So, Michael, thank you so much for your time. It's been appreciated, your stories and your experiences. And, yeah, you've had some tough times there, but come all the way through, and it's beautiful that you shared that with us. Thank you so much. [00:52:32] Speaker A: Yeah, of course. And thank you. And I just want to give you a huge compliment. I've done a lot of interviews. I do a lot of interviews. You're brilliant, and you have, like, a really intuitive and inquisitive mind, but you have a brilliant way of phrasing things. Like, you said numerous things that I wish I could have written down and quoted. So thank you. I feel like this shared experience was really awesome for me. [00:52:52] Speaker B: Thank you so much. I appreciate that. That's really cool. I feel like I'm doing something good and I'm helping people, so that encourages me even more. [00:52:59] Speaker A: You are. You have a gentle heart and it comes through. It's cool. I appreciate it. Our world needs a lot of people like you. [00:53:07] Speaker B: Thanks, mate. Thank you. I appreciate that. All right, so I'll say bye for now and, yeah, thank you for your time. Mike has been through quite a lot of experiences there, and the things that he shared, I think, will resonate for many people out there. It's tough when you don't have access to your own child and can put you through quite an intense grieving process, which is almost akin to them passing. So I know what he's going through and know what he's been through because of the separation I had been through with my ex in the past and the limiting of my access to her as well, to my daughter, I should say. And, yeah, so his sharing, I think, will actually help with some people in their understanding and their experience of those sort of events. And it was a pleasure to have Mike on the show, and I hope you enjoyed today's episode of Supernormalized. If you have a story that you'd like to share, please write me directly at supernormalized. At Proton, me and if you enjoyed the show, please share with two of your friends. And that'll actually help people hear the show and expand my listener base so that more people can get supernormalized themselves. All right, so thank you so much for your time for listening. And until next week. Bye for now. [00:54:34] Speaker A: You. It's don't matter.